Wyominng Bill-HB 0149

[BuzzH]

I have always valued Buzz's posts and opinions here and was a bit surprised yesterday by reading his comments over there. Almost surprised enough to think someone else was using his account at first. Maybe I am just naïve, but he definitely had a different tone then what I have seen in the past, which is too bad.

OK, going to clear this thing up once and for all.

The average sportsmen in this country, both R and NR are hosed. Read that twice...its that important.

Secondly, that hosing is going to continue, until even the dimmest of bulbs realize they're being hosed. As Oak has said countless times, hunter apathy is THE biggest problem we face. (read that twice for good measure as well).

Even though we continually get kicked under the bus, very, very, very few people stand up to do a single thing about any of it....unless.

Unless its an issue thats personal to them, then the chit hits the fan. Talk about taking away a .5% chance at a tag, and many (yes YOU floppy), will support the devil, sell their kids future out, and even support a group that has routinely and systematically created a system to break it off in the a$$ of the average guy, every time, with a proven track record of same, without exception...

So, lets "unite" hunters, or more precisely, the handful that are willing to take time to do more than buy a tag.

That all sounds good. Lets maybe even start an alliance of groups to help joesixpack.

Great, we're on to something.

Well, the chit part is, the GF budget is the #1 priority for many of the groups here in Wyoming. To the point, that no %^%$ing matter, how much "good" the bill will do for joe sixpack, they wont support it if it costs the GF budget a penny.

Case in point with HB104, a bill that creates a system to postpone a deer, elk, or pronghorn tag to the following season if the hunter that draws the tag breaks his legs, has to have open heart surgery, any medical reason. Makes sense, good bill, that would allow a hunter (either R or NR), that drew say a 128 mule deer tag and broke his leg before the season to hunt the following year.

Ten hours before the bill is to be heard, 2 sportsmens groups in Wyoming are going to kill it because the fiscal note on the bill is $157,000 loss to the Department. I start sending emails (have them here) saying, "hey, this bill makes sense lets see what we can do for joesixpack". Email back, "I disagree, it will reduce the GF budget by 157K".

So, I sleep like chit all night trying to figure out how to get this passed, as it makes sense. About 2 in the morning, it all clicks. I jump in my truck at O dark Thirty and head to Cheyenne to testify. I testify and ask for an amendment to the bill stating that if the applicant gets a medical postponement, they have to forfeit their license fee for the tag.

The bill still has a long way to go, but it had no chance without the amendment, because sportsmens groups here wont support bills that chip away at the GF budget. A couple sportsmens groups were within hours of killing a bill that helps joe sixpack in committee, all over some $$$. Never bothered to look for a solution either.

Further, since I helped them out on this one, to save the Department 160K, how about WE lift this 90/10 bill and help bring parity to the joesixpack Resident hunters of Wyoming. The best I got was, "we'll not take a position". Yeah, right up until testimony time, then its, "we don't have a position, but we're concerned about the funding"...yeah, no position.

That all leads to the 60/40 split. Beings how joesixpack is going to get very little in the way of help from the Sportsmens groups in Wyoming until we bring back all the programs and funding that were "cut" from the GF, don't be expecting much resistance by them to stop anything that increases GF revenue. Conversely don't be expecting much support for joesixpack if a bill costs the Department a single red cent, no matter how much sense or good the bill would otherwise do joesixpack.

So, after much thought, here is what I've come up with.

1. I cant fight, against other Sportsmens groups that are only concerned with funding the GF. I also cant get any support from them to help joesixpack, unless I (that would be ME) come up with a way to make every bill revenue neutral (never mind if it may help joesixpack).

2. Bottom line is, there is not going to be a unified sportsmens voice in Cheyenne for joesixpack until the GF funding is fixed. Its that frickin' simple. Without a unified voice, you don't stop WYOGA and the legislation they bring.

Complicating the whole issue is that stupid SOB"s like flopgun and Kyle Meintzer supported and/or funded the beast that is WYOGA, all over 78 tags. WYOGA then turns around and brings this 60/40 chit and I'm now supposed to "save the day" and "look out for the average guy" and "stop hunting from becoming a rich mans sport".

So you tell me, do I oppose a bill (hb149), that raises nearly a half million for the budget, which is likely not going to be met with much resistance? Or, do I support the bill, to get the funding shackles off me so I can then roll up my sleeves and go to work for joesixpack?

Shouldn't have had to explain this, its been going on for a long, long time. Hunter apathy is what has gotten us into this mess and continues to get worse.

I'm hoping there is a level somewhere in the drain we're (average R and NR hunters) circling that people wake up and start doing the right thing, before we get the checkered flag on our race to the bottom.

Theres a double scoop of reality.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I didn't miss any point, and I could care less about your battle with Buzz.

NR used WYOGA as an ally to win their battle. Kyle was even calling for folks to donate to the their "hunter defense fund" on the Bowsite. A snake is a snake is a snake and I don't trust WYOGA (or any states outfitter/guide association) to look out for me as a NR OYO guy. Anyone that does is dancing with the devil.

I don't KNOW what WYOGAs motives are in introducing this bill, but I can guarantee you it doesn't serve you or me well in the long run. My guess is they will "sell" the idea to help balance the G&F budget, and then when they don't have enough folks applying for the special draw they will shift some of those tags to auction tags.

IMHO you're incorrectly lumping all NRs in with WYOGA on that one fight where both happened to want the same thing. Even if it was true, the NRs that would have been greatly affected by that reduction didn't have a choice that the WYOGA happened to be fighting it for their own selfish reasons too! Just like you could care less about my fight with BuzzH, I can't do or care much about what one person does to get help for his cause like Kyle did. I would have done it on my own and at my own expense, but I'm not Kyle! The motive WYOGA has behind the present Bill is to enhance the chance that they can fill all their hunting slots with customers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that many of the outfitters try to get their customers to apply for the expenseive tags so they have a better chance at drawing and going with their chosen outfitter. How better to do that than to have another 20% of those licenses available to those who can afford to spend the extra money like most that go guided probably can! Sure, their whole sell job is going to be that the G&F may take in another $500,000 a year by upping that percentage to 60% of the tags. However, I doubt seriously the way residents and organizations have hammered the WYOGA on their tries to get landowner transferrable tags and have also put SFW in it's place that there will be any additional auction tags in the near future in Wyoming.

 

[BuzzH]

You missed the point JLS! The NRs had no choice about fighting that attempt to go to a 90/10 split. That doesn't mean they're aligned with WYOGA just because that organization was also against it. Like I stated earlier, BuzzH stated openly on MM that he is going to fight for the 60/40 to 40/60 reversal and I fully understand that a resident would do that to get more money for the G&F. However, it's very simple for him to do that since he has no skin in the game on this one like he did on SF69 because it's strictly another screwing of the NRs on their side of the draw. The big thing I'm trying to get across is that if he does that it should mean that he's now aligning himself with the WYPGA, which we all know he detests. You can't have it one way and say that the NRs were aligned with WYOGA on the 90/10 split and then turn right around and fight for the same thing they are on this next Bill and say you're not! The one thing I've always agreed with BuzzH is that there should be no PPs system and everyone should be in a fair, impartial random draw for available tags. Some of the tough ones should then be made a OIL tag after a person draws them like sheep, goats, moose and Bison.

I see, NR's can have it both ways though, (support WYOGA to save their place in the draw) and then cry when WYOGA gaffs them with 60/40??? That's not having it both ways?

You couldn't connect two dots with a road map and box full of crayons...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

BuzzH: "Complicating the whole issue is that stupid SOB"s like flopgun and Kyle Meintzer supported and/or funded the beast that is WYOGA, all over 78 tags. WYOGA then turns around and brings this 60/40 chit and I'm now supposed to "save the day" and "look out for the average guy" and "stop hunting from becoming a rich mans sport"."

Here we go again with your style of talking down to people that many, including myself, have asked you to discontinue over on MM. However, being the egotistical Narcissist that you are, most of us realize it's impossible for you to do in even one post! Most have now even stated or agreed that your lousy style has caused as much or more damage than if you had just stayed out of the political arena! That was made very evident when your "slam dunk" Bill prognosis went down 4-1 this week. Some of us are out there trying to do something to help and are not sitting back like most of those you're talking about! For the last time, I DID NOT SUPPORT the WYOGA on anything they had to do with SF69 and never have on anything they have been party to! Everything I did by letter, email, and phone did not speak of WYOGA a single time, but rather just to the lack of fairness to those that were vested for many years in the program! WYOGA members had their obvious self-serving reasons for fighting it just as the NRs, while you and other residents fought for it for the same bloody reason on your side! I actually had no reason to even get involved with SF69 because I made a wise decision decades ago not to waste my hard earned money on pipe dreams and promises that will not be kept most of the time by the states with their various PP schemes! However, I did fight for my fellow sportsmen strictly because it's not fair to change the rules right in the middle of the game like SF69 would have done. You, on the other hand, were willing to throw those people under the bus and don't say it wasn't in part so you had a better chance at the tags you're looking for with all the accrued PPs that you have!

Now when you say you'll fight to see that HBO149 passes just like WYOGA will do, it's no dang different than when you accused NRs of being in bed with the WYOGA just because we happened to be on the same side of an issue for a change! Hypocrite---you betcha!!! If it passes and I have to shell out more money to get a tag, I will because I have the means to do so and will until I'm old enough that I can't physically do what I love so much any more. The shame of this whole hunting thing nowadays is that more and more are being priced right out of the game and no matter how much I fight for them it appears it's going to put a lot more out of the game than I ever thought might happen!

 

[Flatrock]

So what are the odds of this thing passing? Pretty good I'd assume?

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I see, NR's can have it both ways though, (support WYOGA to save their place in the draw) and then cry when WYOGA gaffs them with 60/40??? That's not having it both ways?

You couldn't connect two dots with a road map and box full of crayons...

Another little BS "talk down to" rant by the king of the egotistical Narcissists, LOL! Sure we can have it both ways if it benefits the whole! You surely don't believe NRs should have sat back and had the shaft stuck up their wazoos without a fight just because WYGOA was in on it do you? I guess I shouldn't even ask that question because your continual rant saying the same thing over and over about backing WYOGA is exactly what you're saying! You are so full of it that I sometimes wonder why you haven't choked to death! I thought you would have at least had enough smarts to see that everyone is on to you and your hypocritical posts regarding these two Bills, but I guess your head is so high in the clouds that they're blocking any insight. I think it's time to leave this one alone before the real King of this site locks the thread! Bye Bye, buy bonds!

 

[gwhunter]

So, not to get in the middle of this, because I still can't seem to figure out who supports what, but how does a NR make any impact on voicing their opinion (either for or against)? Do you contact the people who wrote up the bill? That seems counter-intuitive since well, they wrote it so they already are pretty strong on supporting it. Do you just contact as many representatives as possible so they have an idea of how the NR feels when it comes time to vote? Is something like this even voted on since I think someone said somewhere that the last bill had a vote count of 4-1 which means the entire house or senate didn't vote on it?

 

[JLS]

IMHO you're incorrectly lumping all NRs in with WYOGA on that one fight where both happened to want the same thing. Even if it was true, the NRs that would have been greatly affected by that reduction didn't have a choice that the WYOGA happened to be fighting it for their own selfish reasons too! Just like you could care less about my fight with BuzzH, I can't do or care much about what one person does to get help for his cause like Kyle did. I would have done it on my own and at my own expense, but I'm not Kyle! The motive WYOGA has behind the present Bill is to enhance the chance that they can fill all their hunting slots with customers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that many of the outfitters try to get their customers to apply for the expenseive tags so they have a better chance at drawing and going with their chosen outfitter. How better to do that than to have another 20% of those licenses available to those who can afford to spend the extra money like most that go guided probably can! Sure, their whole sell job is going to be that the G&F may take in another $500,000 a year by upping that percentage to 60% of the tags. However, I doubt seriously the way residents and organizations have hammered the WYOGA on their tries to get landowner transferrable tags and have also put SFW in it's place that there will be any additional auction tags in the near future in Wyoming.

As I said earlier, I think a 90:10 split is entirely reasonable and equitable. However, the expectation of a tag, based on the PP system (ponzi scheme) that hunters fall into created an uproar. WYOGA used all of the sheep hunters as pawns to shoot down the 90:10 bill, based on the how badly WY G&F is financially.

Effectively, they let the pawns testify on how dire the situation is, and they rush in with an alternative funding source that doesn't alter the "value" of eveyone's precious PP. However, the reality is that now deer and elk points have been devalued and point creep will become an even bigger issue, forcing more people either 1) out of the game or 2) into the special draw category. This is just a baby step towards transferable/auction tags. Don't kid yourself.

I'm not going to argue this further. I don't have a crystal ball and am not omniscient. However, I'm smart enough to say that something stinks to high heaven and I think that Joe Sixpack is about to take it in the shorts. If this was simply about funding G&F, it would be a hell of a lot easier to just raise all of the license fees by a small amount to accomplish the same thing. If you don't think this is very calculated, I have some ocean front property in Arizona that I'd like to sell.

 

[JLS]

So, not to get in the middle of this, because I still can't seem to figure out who supports what, but how does a NR make any impact on voicing their opinion (either for or against)? Do you contact the people who wrote up the bill? That seems counter-intuitive since well, they wrote it so they already are pretty strong on supporting it. Do you just contact as many representatives as possible so they have an idea of how the NR feels when it comes time to vote? Is something like this even voted on since I think someone said somewhere that the last bill had a vote count of 4-1 which means the entire house or senate didn't vote on it?

The committees vote first to pass a bill to the floor, where it is voted on in entirety before being transferred to the next chamber.

If you want to express your vote, write to the committee members. Understand that as a NR you have very little voice. WYOGA is a very powerful lobby and your chances of overcoming that are like an ice cube on a Phoenix sidewalk.

 

[gwhunter]

If you want to express your vote, write to the committee members.

Are the committee members the one's whose names are on the bill or can I find that information somewhere else?

There is always the possibility that a cloud could roll through Phoenix. Couldn't hurt to try.

 

[BuzzH]

So what are the odds of this thing passing? Pretty good I'd assume?

The smart move to answer your question would be to consult with topgun, he knows everything about Wyoming from his desk in Michigan...has a cdrom and all, and is on WYOGA's hotline.

But, my $1 bet is that the bill passes, or an amended version with a 50-50 split, showing how good hearted WYOGA is...

 

[JLS]

Are the committee members the one's whose names are on the bill or can I find that information somewhere else?

There is always the possibility that a cloud could roll through Phoenix. Couldn't hurt to try.

The names on the bill are the ones that wrote it. You need the names of the committee members that are hearing the bill.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/LegislatorSummary/CommitteeMembers.aspx?strCommitteeID=06

 

[Flatrock]

I feel like this will pass and then 5 years down the road the G&F will need more money and it will go to an 80/20 split. Give it another 5 years after that and the regular priced tags could disappear altogether.

 

[gwhunter]

The names on the bill are the ones that wrote it. You need the names of the committee members that are hearing the bill.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/LegislatorSummary/CommitteeMembers.aspx?strCommitteeID=06

Thanks JLS for the Civics lesson

 

[Z Barebow]

I feel like this will pass and then 5 years down the road the G&F will need more money and it will go to an 80/20 split. Give it another 5 years after that and the regular priced tags could disappear altogether.

You are way off. (Sarcasm) Regular priced tags won't disappear. (Because WYGOA cares about the average hunter!) Regular tags will be raised to the price of the special tag. And special draw tags will be priced "extra special". :hump:

 

[BuzzH]

Yep...and well heeled NR's, and smart guys like topgun, will fund/support WYOGA to make sure it happens.

 

[NoWiser]

Buzz,

Some of your posts are very informative and appreciated, but you lose a lot of us by taking shots like the one above.

Topgun no more supported WYOGA by fighting against the 90/10 split than you support them by fighting for the 60/40 flip-flop. In fact, I'd say your stance supports them more as the passing of it will create much more revenue for them than if the trophy tags went to 90/10.

I emailed the members of the committee yesterday. No response as of yet, which is not a surprise. I give this thing almost no chance of NOT passing...looks like it will be a general tag every 4th year in the near future.

 

[BuzzH]

NoWiser,

Since you're wiser than me, explain my way out of this one:

(BTW, I'm not a paid lobbyist to fight NR battles...it costs me vacation time and money to fight this crap.)

1. I cant fight, against other Sportsmens groups that are only concerned with funding the GF. I also cant get any support from them to help joesixpack, unless I (that would be ME) come up with a way to make every bill revenue neutral (never mind if it may help joesixpack).

2. Bottom line is, there is not going to be a unified sportsmens voice in Cheyenne for joesixpack until the GF funding is fixed. Its that frickin' simple. Without a unified voice, you don't stop WYOGA and the legislation they bring.

So you tell me, do I oppose a bill (hb149), that raises nearly a half million for the budget, which is likely not going to be met with much resistance? Or, do I support the bill, to get the funding shackles off me so I can then roll up my sleeves and go to work for joesixpack?

Maybe I'll just take a "no position, but the funding would be great" stance...play the middle, seems to be the MO in Cheyenne.

 

[roadhunter]

Ahh, more of the same activity from Buzz. One minute you are telling us how we all need to stick together, and the next you are insulting other hunters for no reason. Can't be both ways Buzz. If you want people to come together you need to use more honey and less vinegar in your recipe. Your recipe now simply divides hunters. doesn't' accomplish anything. At some point you will be here asking for people to help but nobody will be willing to help because of how you treat them and talk down to them. You get away with this because you get gub ment paychecks. Act like this in the private sector and you don't get a paycheck.

It sucks worse for me...taking chit from every angle.

I'd almost rather be a NR and just have to come up with more money to apply in the Special side of the draw...trust me.

JLS, you are 100% correct, and if R and NR hunters don't start finding themselves on the same side, supporting each other, sometimes at their own expense, it wont get better.

I also might add that the various Sporting groups better get on the same page as well, don't see much of that either.

You couldn't connect two dots with a road map and box full of crayons...

 

[NoWiser]

Buzz, I understand what you are saying. The point I was trying to make is that you are taking shots at Topgun for having been on the same side as WYOGA while, at the same time, you are also on the same side as them, though on a different bill. There is nothing wrong with being on the same side as them on an issue. It doesn't mean you are supporting them financially or otherwise.

I'll step back now and let the discussion continue... I try to stay out of this type of thing on forums, but let myself get sucked in this time.