Losses at the Forest Service

[Archer86]

420 is "some"?

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out – because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out – because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out – because I’m not a Jew.
Then they came for me – and there was no one left to speak for me."

Martin Niemoller.

420 is 5 percent of the workforce for the fish and wildlife service i would say it's some not uncommon for a private sector job to cut back that much.

It sucks but it's no where even remotely close to what you are trying to compare it to.

 

[BuzzH]

420 is 5 percent of the workforce for the fish and wildlife service i would say it's some not uncommon for a private sector job to cut back that much.

It sucks but it's no where even remotely close to what you are trying to compare it to.

Right, 420 from an agency already under-staffed.

 

[mdhunter]

Pretty sad lack of middle ground on this thread.

I hear Buzz talking about the size of pensions but then I think about my father in law who took an offer of 2/3 of his salary for life at age 56. He is now 85. I think he made a good choice with his government pension.

No doubt some agencies are short staffed, some are bloated, some need to be reinvented completely.

Until we as a group can agree on what are the actual facts, the rest is just white noise.

 

[BuzzH]

I hear Buzz talking about the size of pensions but then I think about my father in law who took an offer of 2/3 of his salary for life at age 56. He is now 85. I think he made a good choice with his government pension.

CSRS all but sure of it...wayyyyy different than FERS. For the record, anyone hired after 1987 is under FERS.

To get 65% of your salary under FERS you'd have to punch in 60 years of service. First people that would be eligible for that kind of pension under FERS would be 2047 and minimum age of 78.

 

[Bonasababy]

Pretty sad lack of middle ground on this thread.

I hear Buzz talking about the size of pensions but then I think about my father in law who took an offer of 2/3 of his salary for life at age 56. He is now 85. I think he made a good choice with his government pension.

No doubt some agencies are short staffed, some are bloated, some need to be reinvented completely.

Until we as a group can agree on what are the actual facts, the rest is just white noise.

There is no middle ground because what's happening doesn't match the stated objective at all.

 

[BuzzH]

I hear Buzz talking about the size of pensions but then I think about my father in law who took an offer of 2/3 of his salary for life at age 56. He is now 85. I think he made a good choice with his government pension.

For your viewing pleasure, and just so you know how your FIL receives that kind of pension:

For the record, I know how these systems work and your insinuation that I was lying about the FERS pension is off base.

High-3 Average Salary​

Your “high-3” average pay is the highest average basic pay you earned during any 3 consecutive years of service. These three years are usually your final three years of service, but can be an earlier period, if your basic pay was higher during that period. Your basic pay is the basic salary you earn for your position. It includes increases to your salary for which retirement deductions are withheld, such as shift rates. It does not include payments for overtime, bonuses, etc.

Computation​

Here is how the CSRS annuity formula is calculated:

CSRS Annuity Formula

Years of Service​	What You Receive​
First 5 years of service	1.5 percent of your high-3 average salary for each year
Second 5 years of service	Plus 1.75 percent of your high-3 average salary for each year
For all years of service over 10	Plus 2 percent of your high-3 average salary for each year.

Compared to FERS, which everyone is on that was hired in 1987 or later:

High-3 Average Salary​

Your “high-3” average pay is the highest average basic pay you earned during any 3 consecutive years of service. These three years are usually your final three years of service, but can be an earlier period, if your basic pay was higher during that period. Your basic pay is the basic salary you earn for your position. It includes increases to your salary for which retirement deductions are withheld, such as shift rates. It does not include payments for overtime, bonuses, etc. (If your total service was less than 3 years, your average salary was figured by averaging your basic pay during all of your periods of creditable Federal service).

Computation for Non-Disability Retirements​

FERS Basic Annuity Formula

Age	Formula
Under Age 62 at Separation for Retirement, OR Age 62 or Older With Less Than 20 Years of Service	1 percent of your high-3 average salary for each year of service
Age 62 or Older at Separation With 20 or More Years of Service	1.1 percent of your high-3 average salary for each year of service

We can run some numbers on the pension for 30 years for both:

CSRS: 56.25% of high 3.

FERS: 30% of high 3.

 

[Chama Grande]

So far, better than any other hunting forum I've found around issues like this. Go on other hunting forums, and they are cheering on the cuts like a bunch of idiots that don't understand the stool they are standing on is next.

Anyone checked on 24 hour campfire lately? I'm sure it's great

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Pretty sad lack of middle ground on this thread.

I hear Buzz talking about the size of pensions but then I think about my father in law who took an offer of 2/3 of his salary for life at age 56. He is now 85. I think he made a good choice with his government pension.

No doubt some agencies are short staffed, some are bloated, some need to be reinvented completely.

Until we as a group can agree on what are the actual facts, the rest is just white noise.

I tried offering facts, but some people refuse to recognize them because they are inconvenient to their narrative. And your father was CSRS, not FERS. Nobody today gets 2/3 of their salary. Buzz's numbers are spot on. Work 30 years and you get 30% of your salary. How incredibly wasteful. LOL

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

The actual facts in this thread are really challenging the misinformation that a lot of people have happily consumed since Reagan began training people to believe "government is not the solution to the problem, government is the problem..." Remember that little campaign nugget? I do.

If you want some actual facts, google Lee Atwater and the southern strategy, and buckle up.

 

[N2TRKYS]

What do want to know about the great federal retirement?

First thing you should know is that seasonal time doesn't even qualify for retirement prior to 1988. Never mind that thousands and thousands of workers did the job as seasonals, some for decades, most working more than 40 hours per week at low level/pay positions marking timber, fighting fire, etc. None of that time counts toward retirement, no 401, no nothing.

Also, up until just recently, these full time seasonals didn't even get health insurance. Took about a decade of lobbying D.C. to get that basic benefit (thanks to the worthless Union that @Treeshark says does nothing), but still nothing toward retirement for seasonals.

I know a lot of employees that punched in 20+ years and don't receive anything in pension for that work, pretty stellar huh?

Lets say you did luck out after say, 10 years of being a seasonal and found yourself a permanent job, either a PSE or PFT position.

You qualify for FERS retirement, MRA for most people is 57 with 30 years of service or age 60 and 20 years of service to qualify for retirement. Your retirement is based off high 3 years of pay. So, I'll use the majority of the folks I work with as an example, they are all mostly gs-9s and most will reach step 10 if their bodies can hold to 57, but most will have to work to 60 at least. High 3 with location pay gs-9 step 10, maybe 80K a year. Most will have less than 30 years most likely, so multiplier is 1.0 per year of service. But assuming 30% of 80K, advanced math: 24K a year, or 2k per month.

Deduct 20% for taxes, $400 month for insurance....$1200 a month pension to pocket or a whopping 14.4K a year.

Yes, under FERS you get the SS offset until age 62 if you retire mra+30 or 60+20 ...formula for that (google it) but say 70-75% of what you would get at age 62. Say another 1000/month, maybe 800 to pocket. Round it to another 10K...less than 25K a year. That number would increase at 62 if you decide to take SS then. Still likely less than 30K a year for 30 years of service.

Only other benefit is the TSP (think 401), that is a 3% match dollar for dollar, another 2% 50 cents on the dollar. Depending on salary, contributions, how its invested, etc. For me, that will be the largest part of my retirement since I was in the great position to invest 25% of my gross income since being eligible. Most people I work with probably contribute 5-10%. Keep in mind that 20% of that was MY money.

When you start drawing tsp at age 59 1/2 withdrawls on TSP is taxed by federal law at 20%.

Are you seeing the "greatness" yet?

The biggest benefit by far is the health insurance, second is the TSP which is only true if you've invested wayyyyy past the 5% match, tied for 3 and 4 is SS and pension.

Also keep in mind that most 9's were hired on career ladder positions 5-7-9, meaning they did a year as a 5, a year as a 7, and year as a 9 to get there.

I can't speak to all federal positions but the one I do beats people up pretty bad, has even killed people that I worked with. Don't like to get into details or even talk about it, because it still bothers me a lot, but a plane crash, a bad encounter with a grizzly which are 2 of the constant risks we face. Not to mention riding ATV's, dirt bikes, horses/mules, vehicles, all the shit that can kill you in the woods, crazy folks in the woods, etc. etc. We've had many close calls, but considering the amount of work we do, its impressive we haven't had more bad days. A vast majority of our staff are pretty much full time field people, meaning we're out in all kinds of weather. Our field packs are 35-42 pounds standard including 2 quarts of water and an apple and a sandwich. The places we visit are across all ownerships across the entire U.S. and U.S. territories. Field locations are found roughly every 3.5 miles on a random grid. Meaning, you don't have a choice where these things are located and most are not in real friendly places. Since these locations are so spread out, extensive travel is necessary and because the unit I work covers 8 states, its not uncommon to be traveling away from home a majority of the season.

Lots of the field locations require long backpacking trips, lugging the required 35-42 pounds of gear, plus everything for extended stays. While backpacking sounds fun on vacation, its a whole different thing when you're doing it for several weeks a years for decades. The wear and tear on your knees, back, ankles, hips, etc. are real. Not to mention the risk involved with the other means we use to get to these locations...all of which can cause a real bad day, right quick like.

Nobody I work with complains, but we are constantly aware that all of us are one bad step from a career ending injury.

There's a reason only a handful of the people I started working with on my current job are still around after 29 years, its not for everybody, and frankly not many people can do it, in particular for any length of time.

But, hey, the pay is mediocre, hours long, get to be away from home a lot, and you get a 14K a year pension if you can make it 30 years if your body holds out!

Feel free to ask any other questions.

How did they get all those folks to work all those years for terrible pay and only find out at the end of their careers that there wasn’t any retirement? Surely, they noticed it wasn’t being taken out of their checks.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

420 is 5 percent of the workforce for the fish and wildlife service i would say it's some not uncommon for a private sector job to cut back that much.

It sucks but it's no where even remotely close to what you are trying to compare it to.

Would it change your mind to know the agency has lost 30% of of its workforce in the past 15 years? I'm guessing no. And 5% is just the unlawful terminations. Nobody knows how many coerced resignations are about to be announced.

 

[mtmuley]

Would it change your mind to know the agency has lost 30% of of its workforce in the past 15 years? I'm guessing no.

Why the loss? mtmuley

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

It's always been there, just under the surface. All it takes is the nod of approval from the top for it to rear it's ugly head.

Its pathetic and sad, but predictable...its how the groupies roll.

Perhaps we can look onto our history to find they way - Read "The Big Burn" by Timothy Egan to find inspiration. Or not

 

[BuzzH]

How did they get all those folks to work all those years for terrible pay and only find out at the end of their careers that there wasn’t any retirement? Surely, they noticed it wasn’t being taken out of their checks.

Huh?

 

[Archer86]

Would it change your mind to know the agency has lost 30% of of its workforce in the past 15 years? I'm guessing no.

It sucks yes i agree.

but it is in no way is it remotely the same as the holocaust not even close and to try and compare or reference is just dumb

 

[SAJ-99]

Pretty sad lack of middle ground on this thread.

I hear Buzz talking about the size of pensions but then I think about my father in law who took an offer of 2/3 of his salary for life at age 56. He is now 85. I think he made a good choice with his government pension.

No doubt some agencies are short staffed, some are bloated, some need to be reinvented completely.

Until we as a group can agree on what are the actual facts, the rest is just white noise.

I would love to see some movement to the middle ground. Happy to discuss. Here are some ideas - how about getting rid of step-up basis on inheritances or maybe killing carried interest for PE? Somehow when it comes to ripping the bandaid off, it's always the middle class worker that feels the pain. But we sit here bickering among ourselves on who gets the crumbs.

 

[ismith]

CSRS all but sure of it...wayyyyy different than FERS. For the record, anyone hired after 1987 is under FERS.

To get 65% of your salary under FERS you'd have to punch in 60 years of service. First people that would be eligible for that kind of pension under FERS would be 2047 and minimum age of 78.

If SS runs out of money in 2035, will FERS still be around in 2047?

 

[Rie Bread]

Let’s be real how does meta make earnings look better some years? Layoffs. They gonna do it again too.

Department of Government Efficiency is attempting to get that easy “ atta boy”.

 

[Oak]

As a result, she said, just three full-time employees remain in both the Yellowstone and Bozeman ranger districts to manage 19 rental cabins, 60 bathrooms, 21 campgrounds and other infrastructure spread across 1 million acres.

“There is no one left; they dismantled every single trails and rec program on the Custer Gallatin, and there’s no one left to take care of it,” she said.

'There is no one left': Custer Gallatin National Forest workers reeling from job losses

The cuts weren’t isolated. Across the seven ranger districts that comprise the Custer Gallatin National Forest, Knight said she has heard of at least 32 terminations as of Monday.

www.bozemandailychronicle.com

 

[Rie Bread]

If SS runs out of money in 2035, will FERS still be around in 2047?

Only if they hedged with some fart coin