S. 1695: Human Powered Travel in Wilderness Act

[Deleted member 28227]

After 10 pages the simple answer is no horses, no bikes, canoes rafts or skis and snow shoes. Foot traffic only

You can't use a chainsaw, but you can use solar panel to run your cell phone connected to a bluetooth speaker blaring nickleback.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Does not discriminate mechanical? Come on Straight Arrow... Those fancy snowshoes do not have a mechanical element to overcome challenges in snow? The cross country skis? oarlocks on rafts? paddles? All hold mechanical elements.

There's a big difference between mechanical & mechanized, Charles.

 

[bullbugle307]

With bison.

 

[Sytes]

There's a big difference between mechanical & mechanized, Charles.

A cycle is no more or less mechanical transport than skis, snowshoes, etc

Mechanical transport means any vehicle, device, or contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, snow, or air that has moving parts.

 

[Ben Lamb]

A cycle is no more or less mechanical transport than skis, snowshoes, etc

you mean except for all the moving parts, sprockets, brakes, gears, etc, right? Or have I missed some magical advancement of snow shoe technology over the last 40 years?

 

[Irrelevant]

you mean except for all the moving parts, sprockets, brakes, gears, etc, right? Or have I missed some magical advancement of snow shoe technology over the last 40 years?

Ski bindings:

Dynafit ST Rotation 10 Alpine Touring Ski Bindings | REI Co-op

With hub centering for easy step-in and TUV-certified rotating toe pieces that help prevent unintended releases, the Dynafit ST Rotation 10 AT bindings make your touring days better.

www.rei.com

mt bike

Monocog 29"

The Monocog is a steel singlespeed 29er for the ultimate in simplicity. A chromoly frame and fork makes for old-school style and gives you the smooth ride quality that steel is known for. Durable double wall 29-inch wheels let your roll over obstacles, wh

www.redlinebicycles.com

Camp stove

Jetboil Genesis Basecamp System Camp Stove | REI Co-op

The Jetboil Genesis Basecamp System is the world's first complete cooking solution in one easy-to-carry travel bag.

www.rei.com

iphone

iPhone 11 Pro and iPhone 11 Pro Max: the most powerful and advanced smartphones

Apple today announced iPhone 11 Pro and iPhone 11 Pro Max, a new pro line for iPhone that delivers advanced performance.

www.apple.com

Which is the most mechanical and which saves the most human effort?

 

[Sytes]

you mean except for all the moving parts, sprockets, brakes, gears, etc, right? Or have I missed some magical advancement of snow shoe technology over the last 40 years?

No. I mean by the direct definition used that currently prohibits cycles from our Wilderness areas.

43 CFR § 6301.5 - Definitions.

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Ben Lamb]

No. I mean by the direct definition used that currently prohibits cycles from our Wilderness areas.

43 CFR § 6301.5 - Definitions.

www.law.cornell.edu

Mechanical transport means any vehicle, device, or contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, snow, or air that has moving parts. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, sailboards, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. The term does not include wheelchairs, nor does it include horses or other pack stock, skis, snowshoes, non-motorized river craft including, but not limited to, drift boats, rafts, and canoes, or sleds, travois, or similar devices without moving parts.

So ...where we at here.

 

[Irrelevant]

So ...where we at here.

A hang glider but not skis? I'm having a real hard time with that logic.

I'm not going to lie, I've never thought about where the line is drawn for technology in the wilderness, but now that I have, I think we have no choice but to shift the bar back towards more primitive use. Honestly I could get on board with no cell phones, no gps, no stoves, or water filters, no skis. I stand by snowshoes. You still have to walk down.

Or instead of picking and choosing we could simply say, anything available in 1900 is suitable for wilderness use. Or whatever date we choose.

I know the first response would be, "but what about safety?" Well damnit, I've tried my best to never cave into making it too safe. I like to travel alone and have never used a sat com device of any kind and feel like part of the wilderness experience is the inherent danger.

 

[Sytes]

So ...where we at here.

We are at the crux of a movement that will further expand with the urban dweller rush, spreading their wings into areas bordering Wilderness, care of Covid.

Thus, the more pressure the MTB community brings, the tide will turn and an Amendment will be tabled with stronger conviction. Two years? Four years? No clue... Though it's building.

As we've shared (Ben);

Mechanical transport means any vehicle, device, or contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, snow, or air that has moving parts. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, sailboards, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. The term does not include wheelchairs, nor does it include horses or other pack stock, skis, snowshoes, non-motorized river craft including, but not limited to, drift boats, rafts, and canoes, or sleds, travois, or similar devices without moving parts.

Mountain bikes that cause equal to and even less than the trail erosion damage by boots (USGS) - I view this as inevitable. I understand you and others may not though... to each his / her own.

IMO, I believe it is best to sit at the table and begin drafting equitable terms for (broad thought) 1. wildlife, 2. trail regulations / designation, 3. outdoor user fee that should be all inclusive for public lands. Funding to increase enforcement and research to keep this as a human powered means of "mechanical transport".

 

[Sytes]

I think we have no choice but to shift the bar back towards more primitive use.

I always found it odd that no structures... oh wait, well we have our exceptions... the fluid exceptions made in...

"...An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this chapter an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man’s work substantially unnoticeable;"

I would be game if we really did preserve the Wilderness in it's natural condition. Absolutely nothing human developed. No trails, no hitching posts, no bridges, nodda. Keep it as pristine as pristine gets. That would be --- heaven.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Charles, you're not selecting the entirety of the cfr that you posted in order to prove your point. The plain language of that cfr says you are incorrect in your reading.

 

[rwc101]

Or instead of picking and choosing we could simply say, anything available in 1900 is suitable for wilderness use.

Sweet

 

[Straight Arrow]

I always found it odd that no structures... oh wait, well we have our exceptions... the fluid exceptions made in...

"...An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this chapter an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man’s work substantially unnoticeable;"

I would be game if we really did preserve the Wilderness in it's natural condition. Absolutely nothing human developed. No trails, no hitching posts, no bridges, nodda. Keep it as pristine as pristine gets. That would be --- heaven.

The inconsistency and expression of diametrically opposed points of view, supported by out of context links, quotes, and bolded phrases is duly noted.
(Apparent first argument was "yes" to bicycles, now it's "no human constructed" anything.)

 

[MTTW]

While you all are rewriting the wilderness restrictions, please be careful not to go back in time so far as to criminalize ass wipe. Montgomery Wards catalogs are getting tough to come by.

 

[TOGIE]

While you all are rewriting the wilderness restrictions, please be careful not to go back in time so far as to criminalize ass wipe. Montgomery Wards catalogs are getting tough to come by.

rocks, proper directional use of pine cones, and snow

 

[Sytes]

Charles, you're not selecting the entirety of the cfr that you posted in order to prove your point. The plain language of that cfr says you are incorrect in your reading.

Ben,
It's currently not legal to ride a mountain bike in wilderness. Hense it's written as it is... that's pretty obvious.

It's an arbitrary decision and one an Amendment would correct, imo

 

[Sytes]

(Apparent first argument was "yes" to bicycles, now it's "no human constructed" anything.)

You have a noticeably challenging time with open discussion.
You ignore neffa's same comment yet target mine. You ignore my comment that exceptions are made for, "structures" and the whole primitive idea.

hint...

I would be game if we really did preserve the Wilderness in it's natural condition. Absolutely nothing human developed. No trails, no hitching posts, no bridges, nodda. Keep it as pristine as pristine gets. That would be --- heaven.

smile. It's an internet forum.

 

[Straight Arrow]

You have a noticeably challenging time with open discussion.
You ignore neffa's same comment yet target mine. You ignore my comment that exceptions are made for, "structures" and the whole primitive idea.

hint...


smile. It's an internet forum.

Yes, I must completely agree. With all of your disjointed rhetoric and the challenging times, it's a wonder I can even use the keyboard.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben,
It's currently not legal to ride a mountain bike in wilderness. Hense it's written as it is... that's pretty obvious.

It's an arbitrary decision and one an Amendment would correct, imo

Charles, you highlighted a small portion of that sentence, and left critical pieces out. It's a flawed argument, my friend.

By changing it statutorily, you change the entirety of wilderness as a concept. That means you've just reduced protections on millions of acres of public land. It's the definition of anti-conservation.

That's not right.

That's why I suggest finding a better path forward, that doesn't eliminate Wilderness, but finds better places for mechanized uses. The Blackfoot-Clearwater has some good stuff in it relative to finding common ground with snowmobilers & bikers, while the RMF legislation provides a clear path forward to finding concensus through public processes. Why not simply meet those who oppose opening wilderness 1/2 way?