FOIA - $150 WY NR Wilderness Rule Fine amount; WY 23-2-401(a)

[BuzzH]

Regardless, it's a reductionist argument. Buzz wouldn't be making this argument if Gianforte or Worsech were doing this to MT, he'd be berating them like he does for everything else they do.

Being a tax payer isn't just about how many of your "Pennies" are going to what. That's a ridiculous notion given how unbalanced and effed up our tax code is and how easily one with money can influence our political decisions. It doesn't even really matter how much the Forest service PILT payments are supplementing or supporting the local community. Although, as you can see from Sytes post above, Buzz can make the economic arguement if he wants. It's just not convenient for him when it's his own state and it would introduce more competition for him.

This is a cumulative thing, a participation thing, a representation thing. That's how government is supposed to work. Especially when it's federal land, equally owned by all.

There's no statistical evidence that supports the Wy Wilderness law as being effective for keeping NR's "safer". It's a protectionist law for the outfitter industry, that's it. Period. That's why the politics here are such a shit show. Because as we all know, the MOGA/WYOGAs of the world like welfare and free handouts, just not when someone else gets them. They won't admit it, and they'll make fun of the "libtards" for being the party of handouts and free stuff, but this is how they conduct their business at home.

Buzz is in the wrong with his stance here and that's ok. I understand his perspective and forgive him for it. But this law is nonsense and everyone knows it.

Thanks for stating the obvious, of course its a ridiculous law supporting the outfitting industry.

But, as you just stated, its equally ridiculous for you, sytes, and all the other NR whiners to complain non-stop about it via "I pay taxes". Spare me the nickel, or perhaps at most a single thin dime that you "pay" for wilderness management. Its a lame argument that gets no traction with anyone, in particular those that could change the law.

Also, keep in mind you are NOT being "locked" out of jack chit...you can access the wilderness 365 days a year in Wyoming. Including with a tag in your pocket to hunt big-game, for free. I know a bunch of people on this board that have had great hunts in Wilderness without paying a red cent.

As has been beaten to death, this is a HUNTING REGULATION, controlled by the State of Wyoming via State Statute. Too bad you don't like it, but that's how game management works in the U.S. Wildlife not explicitly controlled via federal acts, laws, or regulations is controlled by the State it resides in.

That means the State can set higher fees, limit NR tags to a small percentage (or even ZERO), exclude you from certain times of the season, WHERE you are limited to hunt, and how much we decide you should pay, etc. etc.

Finally, if this is such a huge issue for you, then mobilize your fellow NR pals and change the law.

If you're not going to do that, then I don't want to hear anymore whining...you have options, use them.

 

[BuzzH]

@brocksw,

Here's what happens when you use your options in Wyoming as a NR hunter to hunt for free in designated wilderness

I hear good things...so does @Greenhorn. He also shot a nice black bear the next day as well, don't have a picture of that.

You can watch things happen, make things happen, or wonder what the $%$ happened.

Apparently you aren't one to make things happen...I guess that leaves you watching in wonder.

 

[Oak]

Mean Green sighting.

 

[brocksw]

@brocksw,

Here's what happens when you use your options in Wyoming as a NR hunter to hunt for free in designated wilderness

I hear good things...so does @Greenhorn. He also shot a nice black bear the next day as well, don't have a picture of that.

You can watch things happen, make things happen, or wonder what the $%$ happened.

Apparently you aren't one to make things happen.

Ok

 

[Deleted member 18333]

@brocksw,

Here's what happens when you use your options in Wyoming as a NR hunter to hunt for free in designated wilderness

I hear good things...so does @Greenhorn. He also shot a nice black bear the next day as well, don't have a picture of that.

You can watch things happen, make things happen, or wonder what the $%$ happened.

Apparently you aren't one to make things happen...I guess that leaves you watching in wonder.

I have a feeling the more he beats this taxpayer drum the more his options for free NR wilderness hunting may be diminishing.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

There's no statistical evidence that supports the Wy Wilderness law as being effective for keeping NR's "safer". It's a protectionist law for the outfitter industry, that's it. Period. That's why the politics here are such a shit show. Because as we all know, the MOGA/WYOGAs of the world like welfare and free handouts, just not when someone else gets them. They won't admit it, and they'll make fun of the "libtards" for being the party of handouts and free stuff, but this is how they conduct their business at home.

Exactly...BS as it is, the wilderness guide law is the devil known. We just watched WYOGA pull strings and push to take financial advantage of and fully screw the DIY hunter for the last 18 months of the Taskforce over far less on the table than the wilderness guide law. Many TF members completely disregarded overwhelming public comment to vote in support of several changes to management.

As a NR, what do you want to "give up" in exchange for changing the wilderness guide law? Based on the dry run we just saw, it will be guaranteed tags, outfitter set asides, more landowner tags, huge price increases, less tags available in the DIY pool, etc. That's not hyperbole, those were the items in play for a small change in limited entry license allocation.

That's why I feel that there are more valuable fish to fry. One man's opinion.

 

[brocksw]

Exactly...BS as it is, the wilderness guide law is the devil known. We just watched WYOGA pull strings and push to take financial advantage of and fully screw the DIY hunter for the last 18 months of the Taskforce over far less on the table than the wilderness guide law. Many TF members completely disregarded overwhelming public comment to vote in support of several changes to management.

As a NR, what do you want to "give up" in exchange for changing the wilderness guide law? Based on the dry run we just saw, it will be guaranteed tags, outfitter set asides, more landowner tags, huge price increases, less tags available in the DIY pool, etc. That's not hyperbole, those were the items in play for a small change in limited entry license allocation.

That's why I feel that there are more valuable fish to fry. One man's opinion.

I don't necessarily disagree about the bigger fish to fry. But....what is the subject of this thread? Is it the other fish or this fish specifically?

If Buzz doesnt like it and doesn't want anyone talking about it or "whining", then maybe he should ask Randy to delete this thread. Problem solved.

 

[BuzzH]

Exactly...BS as it is, the wilderness guide law is the devil known. We just watched WYOGA pull strings and push to take financial advantage of and fully screw the DIY hunter for the last 18 months of the Taskforce over far less on the table than the wilderness guide law. Many TF members completely disregarded overwhelming public comment to vote in support of several changes to management.

As a NR, what do you want to "give up" in exchange for changing the wilderness guide law? Based on the dry run we just saw, it will be guaranteed tags, outfitter set asides, more landowner tags, huge price increases, less tags available in the DIY pool, etc. That's not hyperbole, those were the items in play for a small change in limited entry license allocation.

That's why I feel that there are more valuable fish to fry. One man's opinion.

Worth reading twice, some savvy what it would take to change this law, some don't.

Outfitters would be willing to give it up, perhaps, but they aren't walking away with nothing in exchange.

Is it worth half the available tags NR's currently receive to gain access to Wilderness you can get for free already?

Some don't think things through.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I don't necessarily disagree about the bigger fish to fry. But....what is the subject of this thread? Is it the other fish or this fish specifically?

It's this fish. I'm saying that based on recent and substantial evidence, the trade off for successfully getting rid of the wilderness guide law the would result in a net reduction in nonresident DIY hunting opportunity.
Specifically, I guess this thread is about breaking the law on purpose, which I can't get behind .

 

[brocksw]

It's this fish. I'm saying that based on recent and substantial evidence, the trade off for successfully getting rid of the wilderness guide law the would result in a net reduction in nonresident DIY hunting opportunity.

Why? MT managed to get rid of the outfitter welfare BS for a decade and they're continuing that fight. Why is it that Buzz would just roll over for woga? Why is it that in wy there's only two options? The wilderness law is nonsense. Outfitter welfare is nonsense. Get rid of them both.

Specifically, I guess this thread is about breaking the law on purpose, which I can't get behind .

Neither can I

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Why is it that in wy there's only two options? The wilderness law is nonsense. Outfitter welfare is nonsense. Get rid of them both.

Fair question. Because of the processes we just saw take place that illuminated the current relationship between the legislature, G&F department, WYOGA and taskforce I see no path forward that doesn't include compromise (at best, and putting it very mildly). Things are pretty entrenched; sometimes political inertia is a good thing, sometimes it isn't, sometimes it's risky to find out. The way things stand I feel it would be very risky to find out.

 

[brocksw]

Fair question. Because of the processes we just saw take place that illuminated the current relationship between the legislature, G&F department, WYOGA and taskforce I see no path forward that doesn't include compromise (at best, and putting it very mildly). Things are pretty entrenched; sometimes political inertia is a good thing, sometimes it isn't, sometimes it's risky to find out. The way things stand I feel it would be very risky to find out.

I understand that. There are issues like that in every state, I can name a couple here in ND, where one side is afraid to venture down the path for fear of opening a can of worms they did not intend.

But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't talk ("whine") about those issues. Imo it also doesn't mean we shouldn't advocate for what we know is the right thing to do.

 

[appaloosa]

I understand that. There are issues like that in every state, I can name a couple here in ND, where one side is afraid to venture down the path for fear of opening a can of worms they did not intend.

But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't talk ("whine") about those issues. Imo it also doesn't mean we shouldn't advocate for what we know is the right thing to do.

Awe, North Dakota, the state that gives a whole 1% of its tags to nonresidents and doesn't offer any chance to apply for elk or moose....
But, those commies down in Wyoming sure treat their nonresidents poorly!

 

[Sytes]

This is the topic of THIS thread. Fry your fish - but don't talk crap about MT if you're not willing to look at your own State's GLARING issue.

Would Backcountry Hunters and Anglers leadership continue their stance to not take a position if Montana State legislation drafted a MOGA NR Wilderness welfare check system? I'm quite certain my MT (and elsewhere) BHA friends would oppose such.

 

[brocksw]

Awe, North Dakota, the state that gives a whole 1% of its tags to nonresidents and doesn't offer any chance to apply for elk or moose....
But, those commies down in Wyoming sure treat their nonresidents poorly!

Not true

ND gives unlimited OTC whitetail archery tags to NR.

Unlimited access to NR for our upland and waterfowl.

15% allocation of resident rifle muley tags go to NR archery mule deer. That season runs from the the first weekend in Sept through Jan.

We only give out like 5 bighorn sheep tags per year, NR gets 1. That's 20%.

It's only 1% for rifle tags. But they still get to hunt the rut.

You got me on moose and elk. But I would not oppose letting NR shoot some ND moose or elk. Fair is fair. Keep in mind that's not many elk. Wy has more elk in one unit than we have in the whole state of ND.

 

[BuzzH]

Why? MT managed to get rid of the outfitter welfare BS for a decade and they're continuing that fight. Why is it that Buzz would just roll over for woga? Why is it that in wy there's only two options? The wilderness law is nonsense. Outfitter welfare is nonsense. Get rid of them both.

Neither can I

This attitude and comment is exactly why it was really tough for me to not just make a deal with WOGA about 90/10 and give them their set aside.

Myself and a couple others have the pull that we could have likely made that happen or at least made the discussion go a lot farther.

Same as we could have just let the outfitters pass their legislation (twice) switching the regular/special fees from 60-40 or even 50-50. We fought those 2 bills successfully as well as set aside bills as well.

We also beat them up on the 7250 ask they made to the commission.

I think saying that Wyoming residents "roll over" for WOGA is a real joke, they haven't passed anything of significance in 10-15 years, and it wasn't from lack of them trying.

Maybe work on ND treating NR's a little more fairly before you start running your mouth about WY residents rolling over for WOGA.

 

[BuzzH]

This is the topic of THIS thread. Fry your fish - but don't talk crap about MT if you're not willing to look at your own State's GLARING issue.

Would Backcountry Hunters and Anglers leadership continue their stance to not take a position if Montana State legislation drafted a MOGA NR Wilderness welfare check system? I'm quite certain my MT (and elsewhere) BHA friends would oppose such.

If only obviously, stopping bad legislation from the beginning is just a bit different than repealing existing law that has been upheld in court for 4-5 decades.

Anyone that's involved at all would recognize that.

 

[BuzzH]

Not true

ND gives unlimited OTC whitetail archery tags to NR.

Unlimited access to NR for our upland and waterfowl.

15% allocation of resident rifle muley tags go to NR archery mule deer.

We only give out like 5 bighorn sheep tags per year, NR gets 1. That's 20%.

It's only 1% for rifle tags.

You got me on moose and elk. But I would not oppose letting NR shoot some ND moose or elk. Fair is fair. Keep in mind that's not many elk. Wy has more elk in one unit than we have in the whole state of ND.

Isn't in N. Dakota that restricts NR's from hunting upland birds and maybe waterfowl the first few days of the season?

Locking us out of our public lands...I think I should cry about it.

 

[brocksw]

Isn't in N. Dakota that restricts NR's from hunting upland birds and maybe waterfowl the first few days of the season?

Locking us out of our public lands...I think I should cry about it.

Yes, residents get a 1 week head start for birds. But no restrictions on where. You could still hunt deer on public lands while you wait, you know with your unlimited NR white tail tag. How many unlimited big game tags does wy offer to NR?

Youre more than welcome to cry about it, Buzz. One difference between you and me, is if you choose to "whine" about it here or anywhere else, I won't get my panties in a wad over it, or tell you to quit your whining, or tell you to stop running your mouth, or tell you that you're just a lazy bum who doesn't do anything. Like a sane and civil person I am willing to listen and have a conversation about it.

 

[BuzzH]

Why? MT managed to get rid of the outfitter welfare BS for a decade and they're continuing that fight. Why is it that Buzz would just roll over for woga? Why is it that in wy there's only two options? The wilderness law is nonsense. Outfitter welfare is nonsense. Get rid of them both.

Neither can I

Yeah, because Montana put a bunch of effort and money into a ballot initiative. So when are you starting the fund raising campaign?