School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[VAspeedgoat]

I don't think that ar15 are the problem, but the mentality that came along with them is a problem. We glorify war and macho guys spraying bullets. Rambo comes to mind. Watch a boy after they watch something like that compared to watching something like saving private ryan.

There's no fixing this mindset because its already here just like high capacity mags etc. If I wanted one I could have bought one at any time during the clinton ban. If a kid wants to watch bloody movies and video games they will mo matter what.

There's no going backwards. Family has broken down as pointed out because to have a nice life there often needs to be more income these days. But, in the 50's we didn't buy five guns a year to go kill deer that you didn't have to pay to go hunt for an example. You can try to live simply but your kids are the ones that pay the price socially, athletically and even educationally.

No simple answers for sure but throwing our hands up and saying thats the way its just gonna be is a pretty ignorant way to handle it. It seems like addressing the mental health side of this would be the easiest way to start. Yes gun ownership is a constitutional right but any of us can lose those rights with due process of law if we have done something to justify that. Also, if we don't address mental health, whaterver the cause, these sorts of things will continue with or without guns.

 

[devon deer]

Each time I hear about a school shooting in the US it sickens me, and the poor victims and families affected, so tragic.
I'm not sure this is an answer, but all I can relate to is here in the UK, since the Hungerford massacre all semi-automatic rifles were banned, thankfully no more mass killings involving them, then the Dunblane incident, all handguns banned, no more mass killings involving them.
Then we had a mass killing involving a hunting rifle, nothing was banned, the Government recognised these were tools to control deer etc
But, I'm sure a determined lunatic could get them if they wanted to, after all the only fully/semi-automatic weapons/handguns in the UK now are held illegally in the main by criminals/gangs.

Sadly the rise of the internet and especially social media have a lot to answer for these days, they appear to fuel these type of attacks.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Some thoughts, some prayers and a metric shit-ton more guns.

Yeah, that'll fix this. It's worked so well in the past!

Nothing will be done. The NRA owns our government. We can't even think about looking at the cause of gun violence in this country, or provide healthcare for those most in need.

Or a good education

Or a decent, livable wage if you're unskilled.

Or...


Get over it. This is going to keep happening. It's the price we've paid to elevate our toys over the lives of children.

 

[Nameless Range]

We could reduce the amount of mass shootings, but it would require discontinuing and turning in guns on such a level that Americans don't have the stomach for it. For now, we will settle into this equilibrium of a mass shooting every month or two.

So yes, of course there are ways to address this. Bad things would still happen, but we could achieve a net-reduction in school shootings, and to say otherwise reminds me of that Onion headline: ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens'

I don't think making guns more difficult to get for the mentally ill, or limiting technologies moving forward, would have any meaningful effect. The hole has been dug. The bed has been made. So when I see my lefty friends sharing this image on Facebook, I don't blame them, but think their typical solutions are just platitudes.

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I am someone who understands and finds compelling the argument that guns across our country actually somewhat insulate us from existential risks in a net-positive way(self defense, coups, tyranny, invasion). No matter how unlikely those are. Schaaf is also right though, that staunch 2nd Amendment folks who also sit back idly, or vote in favor of politicians who have no problem gutting social services that the mentally ill rely on, are all gurgle and no guts. Their words ring hollow.

Jordan Peterson, who has lately gotten flak for his anti-SJW stance, has some interesting things to say about the mindset of mass murderers. He uses a somewhat religious context, but I think you could look at it through a secular viewpoint and understand it.

[video=youtube;-8IwBY8-_vE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8IwBY8-_vE[/video]

Kind of reminds me of Norman Maclean's description of the man who attacked and almost killed him for no reason on a fire in Fish Creek in the early 1900s: "It is possible something was working on him besides the fire as he tried to keep ahead of it, something terrible that had been done to him for which he had to get even before his consignment to the flames."

It is indescribably awful, and someday we'll reach a tipping point, and maybe even over react. Until then we'll just mumble and look at our own kids and wonder, and get on with life.

 

[onpoint]

I don't think that ar15 are the problem, but the mentality that came along with them is a problem

I boldened VAspeedgoat's quote because I think it hits the nail on the head.

 

[Big Fin]

I'm thankful to see this discussion here, however people feel. It is worthwhile to see, as Onpoint observed, that even among what most would think is a rather homogeneous group, there are a wide array of perspectives. We all feel violated to some degree by these events, which can cause our most basic instincts to be expressed.

I thank all of your for the tone you have demonstrated so far and I hope it continues down that same civil path.

For me, I worry that this event, like many prior events, will again be looked at as though there are easy solutions. There are no easy solutions. If there were, we would have solved it a long time ago. Our society has changed dramatically in my 53 years on this dirt, some for the better, and some like this, for the worse.

It took decades for the many contributing factors to events like this to fester. It is going to take decades, a ton of commitment, more tons of money, and some changes in how our society looks at complex problems before we turn this "violence culture" a different direction. I'm not smart enough to have the answers, but I do know that we are kidding ourselves if we think it will be solved with sound bite solutions of "Get rid of 20 round clips," or "ban bump stocks," or "get rid of gun free zones," or "arm the teachers," or (insert simplified solution here).

It gives comfort during troubling times to think the problem can be solved that easily. It is the human tendency to seek simple answers to amazingly complex problems. Solutions come from denying that human tendency of simplification and doing the hard work needed to fix things, something freedom-based Democracies struggle with until cataclysmic events take us to the breaking point. I do wonder if our society has the fortitude to get to the sources that increase the likelihood of these behaviors and put the time, commitment, and money behind long-term solutions. I hope we do. If not, expect more these mournful days, not less.

 

[Irrelevant]

I really appreciate everyone comments on the matter. It mimics many that I've had myself. I'll try to add a couple things that I've thought are slices of problem pie, so to speak.

There is no one thing that is wrong, as with most things in life, the source of mass murders in our country are probably somewhat different in each case, yet probably share a lot of similarities.

I think a general lack of quality parenting is a problem. Parenting is hard, and I think as a society we're getting softer and softer and more adverse to doing "hard" things, including parenting. It's not easy to take away your kids phone, to MAKE the time every evening to share a home cooked meal and talk about your day, your problems, you struggles. It's not easy to open up to your kids and show them that everyone struggles with various things and the struggle is fine, that the key is to control it, mitigate it, work on it. Dark times do not last forever. And this doesn't imply you can't do that as too full time working parents, it just takes a little bit of give-a-shit and rearranging priorities.

I also think that a lack of nature if peoples lives has degraded their overall mental health. We as sportsmen don't necessarily fit that paradigm but it's there. The more interaction with the natural world the more exposure to death, natural death, which I believe is a good, healthy thing for people to understand. It creates a better understanding of the value of life. I know as hunters we pride ourselves on being connected to the circle of life. But you can witness it without playing a predominant role in it as us hunters do.

Lastly, and I alluded to it above, we need to get more people to do physical work, whether it be manual labor, sports, or just hitting the gym. As automation has clipped away at the amount of effort required in our day-to-day lives we need to be cognizant of this fundamental value that's being lost and consciously replace it with something else that gets our blood pumping and muscles aching.

 

[RobG]

I don't think that ar15 are the problem, but the mentality that came along with them is a problem

I boldened VAspeedgoat's quote because I think it hits the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, you can't have easy access to the weapons without way too many people having the mentality that comes with them, and only one of those items is practical to change.

 

[VikingsGuy]

There’s so much wrong with your ‘undeniable facts’
First, the constitution doesn’t create or give us any rights, nor does it restrict OUR rights. It is a document restricting government and acknowledging our pre existing rights.
The Supreme Court didn’t ‘give’ us individual gun rights in 2008. It ruled that the constitution protects our rights to own arms.

Again, rights don’t come from government, gun rights don’t come from the second amendment.


I’ve always found it interesting that if a person wants to be informed on this topic or elementary level economics, they must seek out and learn it on their own. It’s not taught at public school. Why is that?

Weird, I was just responding to your reply #51, "US citizens have a constitutional right to own weapons like AR-15s." I am happy to have a discussion of the origin of natural rights, and sounds like we might even agree on a fair bit of that, but to follow up your statement in reply #51 with this reply is a little off.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

You all are making great arguments for both sides. That's why I enjoy being a part of this community.

I've read statistics that show that as a whole, murders are decreasing in 1st world countries at a steady downward trend. This can be said for the UK (where there are very few guns in the hands of the public) as well as the US (where there are many guns in the hands of the public). The murder rates stayed on this slowly declining statistical line before handguns were banned in the UK as they did after they were banned. There are studies that show the same for quite a few other countries as well. This to me points to guns not being the issue.

Mass shootings, although absolutely horrible and not to be brushed away, make up a very small percentage of overall gun deaths in the US. Suicides account for a large percentage of gun deaths (also horrible, and not to be brushed away). Where are the majority of these deaths coming from?

I think if we answer that question and combat that issue, we can do a better job of addressing this issue and start a real conversation.

 

[VikingsGuy]

The last time I checked getting a license and driving a car is not a constitutional right, it's a privilege. Owning guns IS a constitutional right. You go ahead and give up whatever you like, I won't. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. We certainly differ.

I am fine with each of us having our own line about what boundaries are acceptable, but we do not get to have our own facts. Just to be clear, a personal gun right under the 2nd amendment has been a constitutional right since June 26, 2008, AND remains subject to reasonable regulation - just like every right afforded under the constitution.

[I feel like I need to re-iterate, I am pro-hunting, pro-gun and pro-2nd amendment - but it drives me nuts that on a wide range of issues folks believe that their favorite right is above any limitation -- it has never been the case in the 230 year history of the document.]

 

[Dinkshooter]

I wish the Uber cute, sassy looking blonde teacher working the door at my kids preschool was packing heat in the morning while letting kids in. I'm sure she'd take a bullet for the kids, but that is all she'd currently do.

The Jordon Peterson explanation to the whack jobs is good stuff, and I'm not much of a religious person.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't think that ar15 are the problem, but the mentality that came along with them is a problem

I boldened VAspeedgoat's quote because I think it hits the nail on the head.

+1.

 

[Tradewind]

A while back there were staged "accidents" in FL where the thugs would purposely ram a rental car and then hold up and some times shoot the occupants. they did that because of FL concealed carry law and castle law. Basically they were just finding an easier target that they knew was not capable of fighting back.
I view the schools currently fitting into this category. All of the school shootings seem to have a lot in common.
--no resistance or unarmed resistance
--lots of people in a confined area
--Lots of press coverage

We haven't seem anything happen so far in any other venue where there are a lot of people in a confined area. The Super Bowl, for instance had a massive amount of armed security as do most stadiums with college or professional sports.
I have found that the bullies, thugs, perps, whatever will almost always go find an easier target with little or no resistance.
i have seen some comments so far that having some sort of armed security would not work. I am curious to anyones' thinking on this or counter position, if you will.
Do you feel it is impractical, a safety hazard having guns in school i.e. teachers, security forgetting them somewhere, accidental discharge, politically unattainable?
Lets hear it

 

[Ttannahill14]

My wifes a kindergarten teacher and I would expect her to lay her life down for her kiddos. I would prefer her to at least have a fighting chance.

My brother is running for Congress in the 2nd district of Kansas. He did an AR-15 giveaway and started the giveaway 2 days before the shooting. He is getting absolutely destroyed right now from the left and the media and I feel for him. We all want whats best for our country we just come from different backgrounds and view life from a different stance.

Good dialogue so far, much more enjoyable than hopping on facebook at the moment.

 

[JM77]

If we were able to take commercial planes being used as weapons, away from terrorists, we can figure out a way to make the inside of a school safe.

 

[mtmuley]

I don't think that ar15 are the problem, but the mentality that came along with them is a problem

I boldened VAspeedgoat's quote because I think it hits the nail on the head.

I have to agree with this. For someone to act out by shooting mass people, something went way wrong before any weapon was picked up. mtmuley

 

[onpoint]

My wifes a kindergarten teacher and I would expect her to lay her life down for her kiddos. I would prefer her to at least have a fighting chance.

My brother is running for Congress in the 2nd district of Kansas. He did an AR-15 giveaway and started the giveaway 2 days before the shooting. He is getting absolutely destroyed right now from the left and the media and I feel for him. We all want whats best for our country we just come from different backgrounds and view life from a different stance.

Good dialogue so far, much more enjoyable than hopping on facebook at the moment.

"and view life from a different stance".

Couldn't have been put more eloquently.

"My wifes a kindergarten teacher and I would expect her to lay her life down for her kiddos. I would prefer her to at least have a fighting chance".

If I'm the only one that see's the absolute absurdity of the above statement.....
Completely understandable on it's face - unbelievable (but the new normal) at it's core.
Same thing with the AR give away related to a political campaign.....

With all sincerity, Ttannahill14, thanks for the insight(s).

I think there probably and truly is an age related bias to this whole discussion. At least thinking that makes me feel a little better. Maybe like a little boy whistling in the dark........

 

[jryoung]

I find it amazing that people look to government to solve this problem. There was a day in this country that mom stayed home and raised the kids and dad worked one job and was able to feed the family, pay the bills, and have enough left over to take a vacation once a year. Mom had her finger on what the kids were doing, When jr. Got out of line dad came home from work and smacked him up side the head and life went on. Today children are raised by daycare and electronic devices while both parents work. Our culture is the problem, the more progressive we become the worse it will get. Fix family structure and you will solve the problem.

Wage stagnation since the 1970's has always been something that has fascinated me. Like anything, there are multiple factors, a very large component being more women entering the workforce, and corporations figuring out they could pay lower wages for the same amount of work. This pressure on the home has taken years to manifest in society. We've become unhealthier as a society, eat more packaged food, children get less time with their parents and parents get less time with their kids. It wasn't until I started my career in accounting that this started to become really clear. For my first 5 years in public accounting I averaged over 3,100 chargeable hours a year...that's over 60 hours a week billable to clients, not counting administrative, training and non-billable hours. All in, I was averaging nearly 70 hours a week away from home, many weeks close to 90 or 100. Now, don't get me wrong there were many things I loved about by job, I was paid well (my salary doubled in 5 years from when I started), I worked a list of who's who players in Silicon Valley, worked on some incredible global structuring projects, multi-billion dollar acquisitions, early venture phase companies and high-growth start-ups.

One day wage stagnation came up in conversation with a couple of co-workers. We started to look are our clients cash compensation levels for executives (stock is a whole different conversation) compared to employees and nearly without fail the executives of all of our clients was seeing YoY growth of 25-25% whereas rank and file employees were seeing 2-4%. This trend maintained true when I shifted from public accounting to industry, and it became even more apparent when we watched those executives make short term bets to ensure their bonus as opposed to the long term growth and health of the company.

Of course great leaders deserve to be compensated, but this trend over the last 40+ years IMO is an important little nugget into some of the challenges we see today. It's a factor in rebuilding our families where parents are afforded more time with their kids, maybe neighbors can spend a little more time to get to know each other, and we re-build strong, healthy communities.

 

[nwihunter]

I believe all of these shooters get one thing from these killings. FAME. They’ve all seen it play out in similar mass killings before there’s. They know there life is going nowhere and live or die, the world will remember them for these killings. Obviously just my opinion but the popularity of social media and of these style of killings in recent years is no coincidence. In years past we would talk about these things with friends, family, coworkers and such. It would be on the news and the rest of the world would hear brief mention of it. Now it’s talked about in great lengths with the entire world in great detail for a much longer time as more details emerge. Social media has created a huge stage for these type of people to be known. I’m not saying social media has created this problem but I do believe that it fuels the fire. Just my opinion