School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[Doublecluck]

I find it amazing that people look to government to solve this problem. There was a day in this country that mom stayed home and raised the kids and dad worked one job and was able to feed the family, pay the bills, and have enough left over to take a vacation once a year. Mom had her finger on what the kids were doing, When jr. Got out of line dad came home from work and smacked him up side the head and life went on. Today children are raised by daycare and electronic devices while both parents work. Our culture is the problem, the more progressive we become the worse it will get. Fix family structure and you will solve the problem.

 

[Lawnboy]

I find it amazing that people look to government to solve this problem. There was a day in this country that mom stayed home and raised the kids and dad worked one job and was able to feed the family, pay the bills, and have enough left over to take a vacation once a year. Mom had her finger on what the kids were doing, When jr. Got out of line dad came home from work and smacked him up side the head and life went on. Today children are raised by daycare and electronic devices while both parents work. Our culture is the problem, the more progressive we become the worse it will get. Fix family structure and you will solve the problem.

I agree with this

 

[belly-deep]

My grandfather used to hunt grouse on the way to school, set his .22 in the corner of the schoolhouse all day, and then hunt on the walk home.

Guns are not new. These shootings are. Something has changed in society which is causing the problem.

That said, my grandfathers gun was a single shot .22 and there’s no doubt AR type rifles with 30 round mags are more deadly when put into action.

I’m not ready to start passing more gun control laws, because at most, they are “feel good” legislation that will not fix the problem.

It’s really amazing that with all of the brilliance in our society, we haven’t figured this one out yet. Not that I expect a fix, but at least an explanation would be nice. The lack there of is what drives people to conspiracy theories.

 

[rtraverdavis]

This is so tough I keep debating whether or not to even reply. There’s too much I want to say.

I’m a public school teacher. At my school, we practice what we would do in a variety of active shooter situations. Run, hide, or fight. It’s bizarre, and leads to many conversations, including this one here. Many of my kids think I should be carrying a gun in the classroom, which is also bizarre. Here’s my perspective, for what it’s worth:

When I have the discussion with my kids about why this sort of thing happens, I start by saying that I don’t know. I’m not sure any of us really know. I’m not religious, but I can tell you that just because I don’t subscribe to any formal religious doctrine does not mean that I’m morally bankrupt, nor will my own children be raised without a loving but strict moral code. The idea that someone can’t find enough goodness and truth in the world right in front of them, the only life we know, to make them care enough to be loving and moral is ridiculous. I’m dubious of the certainty that religion—nearly any religion—seems to create in people. So when this discussion comes up in my classes I ask my kids (who are the same damn kids that you and I were, with just an even larger pile of shit to worry about) what they think causes mass shootings. Very few think it’s a gun problem. Most attribute it to what I would call an American soul sickness. They say that most people are phonies and liars who say they care but really don’t and that very few people try to understand other people who are different from them and that makes people burn with anger and want to kill one another. I would defend these kids with my life.

 

[Sytes]

Interesting discussion. I think as far as "gun nuts" goes. I envision someone who'll never admit that any weapon is just impractical for the average citizen to be in possession of. Onpoint is right I have a pile of guns. I can see a cartoon drawing in my head of some frantic looking guy trying to grasp every gun available to mankind while they are spilling out of his arms saying "it's my right". I understand it's your right and my right I just don't see the necessity or ease of availability of some of these weapons. I also see the slippery slope that is gun control. So I just don't know what to think.
I agree the underlying problem is failure at a functioning home life. The video games certainly desensitize people to the actual reality of taking a life when on the game is seems so easy without any consequence. Thanks again for ALL your thoughts gents.
BTW I'm a "muley buck nut" so don't get too bent about my comment on nuts.

I've always valued your thoughts within discussions. Seems you have been less and less involved though it is good to read your perspective.

People here have hit on many points I agree...

I could ramble as a LEO over my thoughts of firearms, "gun control", 2nd Amendment, mental capacity, t.v., movies, video games, etc...

All I can say is my deepest thoughts and prayers for the mothers and fathers crying their hearts out over the death of their child. To outlive their young ones who will never be in their arms, EVER. I'm heartbroken. I have family friends from the Littleton tragedy - To have a remote sense of that pain having consoled with that family just burns deep with sadness.

A sad day.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I am pretty typically conservative, a gun owner many times over and an advocate for the second amendment, but all rights come with boundaries, limitations and responsibilities. I support laws that would provide for a meaningful and timely background check for every gun sale, no private sale exception, I support laws that would limit rifle and shotgun magazines to 5 or 6 rounds and handguns to 14 or 15. I would place higher scrutiny around the sale of ar-style weapons and rifle cartridge chambered handguns.

I don’t kid myself that this would solve all the evil in the world, but I am shocked at how these tactical-style guns are being treated like real life video games. More often than not I leave the gun range sickened by the idiots and their behavior while playing with their new ”toys”.

If sportsman do not stand up and support reasonable boundaries we will have Australian style laws forced upon us within 15 years without a doubt.

You might be ready and willing to give up your second amendment rights to try to pacify the gun-grabbers, but I'm not. After the "Reasonable Boundaries" and "Common Sense Gun laws" that you outlined are implemented....what else are you willing to give up after the NEXT mass shooting occurs? And you know there certainly will be another. There is no end to the left's agenda except a total ban on all guns. JMO

 

[noharleyyet]

I'm afraid Buzz nailed it.

 

[VikingsGuy]

You might be ready and willing to give up your second amendment rights to try to pacify the gun-grabbers, but I'm not. After the "Reasonable Boundaries" and "Common Sense Gun laws" that you outlined are implemented....what else are you willing to give up after the NEXT mass shooting occurs? And you know there certainly will be another. There is no end to the left's agenda except a total ban on all guns. JMO

The slippery slope argument is almost always the worst argument in every debate on any topic. Every rule, law or convention we now have sits on a slope. Requiring my 14 yr old son to sit through 30 hours of classroom training, 6 hrs of behind the wheel, 50 hrs of logged supervised driving and passing two state tests along the way to get a drivers license is not just a slippery slope destined to have cars banned in MN.

We each have a line where the rules are acceptable/unacceptable. Debating those on the merits has value - citing slippery slope does not, because on its face it rejects out of hand learning, understanding, compromise, engagement with those who hold other views and constructive change. This is just 1 of about 25 critical issues facing the US and unfortunately PETA, NARAL, NRA, Seirra Club, etc, etc, etc have managed to place every one of them on a slippery slope and fight every inch to the death. Over time this is not good for society, and it is really not good for groups like outdoorsman who are such a small and shrinking voter group.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Unfortunately, my guess is virtually nothing will come of any of this and sometime in the near future we will have another thread just like this.

 

[mtmuley]

Interesting that some here may be in favor of firearms bans and limitations. mtmuley

 

[MTGomer]

US citizens have a constitutional right to own weapons like AR-15s. If you don't like it, work to amend the constitution through the process.

Worrying about a 'slippery slope' on the topic of gun rights is a very narrow view. Its more of an overall assault on constitutional freedoms, and its coming from both sides. Warrantless surveillance, talk by the president about restrictions on people based on their religion, gun control, suppression of free speech on campus, etc etc...

 

[Addicting]

As sad as these events are we need to stop putting it on the news and glorifying the tragedy. That individual who is troubled, bullied, and out for revenge keeps seeing this on the news in front of them and start to see it as way to get even. So they repeat what they saw and they will get their immoral satisfaction and 5 min of fame. This has become a viscous cycle, no new gun, knife, or bazooka law will change that they feel a need for vengeance.

Start making an example out of the individual... If you do this you are gonna pay and it won’t be pleasant. Make the consequences to thier actions not worth the cost of the action. That’s not life in prison or in a nut house. Bring back Sparky and make it Public.

 

[OriginalOscar]

I find it amazing that people look to government to solve this problem. There was a day in this country that mom stayed home and raised the kids and dad worked one job and was able to feed the family, pay the bills, and have enough left over to take a vacation once a year. Mom had her finger on what the kids were doing, When jr. Got out of line dad came home from work and smacked him up side the head and life went on. Today children are raised by daycare and electronic devices while both parents work. Our culture is the problem, the more progressive we become the worse it will get. Fix family structure and you will solve the problem.

Amen!

 

[LWC55]

Interesting that some here may be in favor of firearms bans and limitations. mtmuley

That is interesting. Seems like we could just make murder illegal. While we are at it, make hard drugs illegal too.

 

[CasperOutdoorsman719]

This is a complex problem and any solution will not solve all of the mass casualty events that take place. From perceived wrongs that "need" to be righted, kids who felt bullied, or somebody looking to make a name for them self; these people obviously have a screw loose. I don't think that more gun control is the answer but I also don't necessarily think that arming people in schools is the answer either. I have played violent video games and watch action, shoot 'em up, blow everything all to hell movies but I am sickened that somebody would hurt this many people. I just left the education system and attended a Concealed Carry class for only people in the education system. The thought of 90% of those people carrying guns is TERRIFYING to me after watching them hold even a blue, training gun. I have seen police officers at the range that couldn't hit anywhere near the middle of the target. Sorry to ramble, but there is no magic pill or easy button to a problem like this.

 

[onpoint]

Some years ago, Randy informed me I might enjoy jumping onto this forum because I would find a lot of like minded individuals. So I did.
This very issue (guns?), along with a few others - Public Lands Issues, how to manage the very resources we as hunter utilize, etc. illustrate the glaring fact that "we" are not on the same page on a lot of issues - even as relatively small a demographic we hunters represent.
Yeah, we all like to hunt. But I wonder if that alone, in the long run, will be enough to continue to enable us to keep doing do what we do have in common....

 

[VikingsGuy]

Interesting that some here may be in favor of firearms bans and limitations. mtmuley

I may have misread this string of posts, but I am not sure I saw support for firearms bans. I saw a few folks suggesting that some reasonable boundaries on the second amendment would increase safety, reduce risk of general society backlash against all firearms and in the end not have any meaningful effect on public lands hunters.

For example, closing the private sale exception -- I buy 5 or 6 guns a year, at most 1 of those is a private sale. It would cost me $20 dollars and 30 minutes of my time to have that one sale run through my local FFL - that is a rounding error against the $ and hours I spend hunting/shooting. Or what about requiring Form 4/5330 process for AR-style rifles and rifle caliber handguns? Hardly the end of the world for your average hunter. Heck, we seem to be lined up around the block to get suppressors these days.

And that sets up a great example - suppressors - anti-gun folks flip out about suppressors, but there is a ton of value in their use on rifle ranges and in the field from a hearing safety standpoint - but, suppressors are "evil" and would put them on a slippery slope so they fight at every turn. I think sportsman can be better than this and make some reasonable suggestions towards middle ground - steps that would build support for basic hunting gun (and home safety gun) rights from the 70% of Americans who have no guns (and 90% that have less than 5 guns). If we think that the 5% of American who have more than 10 firearms will continue to win this political battle of "zero tolerance" for any new boundaries over the next 25 years we have our heads in the sand.

 

[JDH]

Im watching the news now. What alarms me the most is that in all of these cases someone or often times multiple people interviewed say they had warned authorities about the shooter but nothing was done about it.

A lot of times law enforcement's hands are tied. Take the couple in California who held their kids captive. When they lived in Texas a neighbor called the cops because they heard screaming coming from their house. The cops told the neighbors that since they didn't see anything happen there was nothing they could do.

 

[elkduds]

Gun Family Feud: Survey says "A good guy w a gun did not stop a bad guy w a gun in time." Votes: 600 teens, 17 of them dead.

If schools need security on a par w airports, so be it.

 

[VikingsGuy]

US citizens have a constitutional right to own weapons like AR-15s. If you don't like it, work to amend the constitution through the process.

I agree that the 2nd amendment creates a person right to guns, but let's also acknowledge - there is not a single constitutional right that comes free of any restriction or regulation. Let's also realize that until Heller in 2008 this right did not exist under the constitution according to 120+ year of supreme court precedent. So, with those 2 undeniable facts in hand, I think it is worth a dialog about what boundaries would be acceptable as it relates to our most lethal firearms.

(By the way, by "undeniable", I am not saying that agreeing with, or rejecting, any particular regulation is undeniably right or wrong, just that as a matter of simple fact, each and every constitutional right is subject to some amount of government regulation -- and that has been the case for over 200 years.)