Red flag warnings

[VikingsGuy]

I have said for a few years now that this is a solution in search of a problem.

Fact is that gun violence is a problem that is so statistically insignificant that it wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people wanting to ban guns.

How many people in the US died from dropping an electronic device into the sink or bath tub? Where is the outrage and demand for action?

Too bad we as a society can’t spend this amount of time and effort on real problems that will effect most people on his forum.

It's a wedge issue - political parties look for issues that ramp up their base and the beat the drum to raise money and drive votes. If it succeeds at that it will get carted out any time they need either -- both parties do it. People are lousy at gauging risk probability (for example air travel is safer than car travel but many fear flying). For many guns are scary, dangerous and unnecessary so why not get rid of them. An issue to whip a base up over. But then those on the other side of the issue (most of us) have to be savy in how to respond, and I think we are reaching a tipping point were "out of my cold dead hands" arguments are not going to cut it any longer. Law abiding gun owners need to do something to show they care and convince the urban soccer mom we are not indifferent to their fears (even if irrational). My personal favorite offering to emotion is UBC - I think all the recent nut jobs cleared theirs and I doubt it would do much, but it feels reasonable and shouldn't be a big deal - we have all gone through it a dozen times, whats a few more. I would rather do UCB than Red Flag. But we have to start winning over more of our colleagues in the world, as we are shrinking in numbers and at some point our voice will approach irrelevant.

 

[jake23]

It's a wedge issue - political parties look for issues that ramp up their base and the beat the drum to raise money and drive votes. If it succeeds at that it will get carted out any time they need either -- both parties do it. People are lousy at gauging risk probability (for example air travel is safer than car travel but many fear flying). For many guns are scary, dangerous and unnecessary so why not get rid of them. An issue to whip a base up over. But then those on the other side of the issue (most of us) have to be savy in how to respond, and I think we are reaching a tipping point were "out of my cold dead hands" arguments are not going to cut it any longer. Law abiding gun owners need to do something to show they care and convince the urban soccer mom we are not indifferent to their fears (even if irrational). My personal favorite offering to emotion is UBC - I think all the recent nut jobs cleared theirs and I doubt it would do much, but it feels reasonable and shouldn't be a big deal - we have all gone through it a dozen times, whats a few more. I would rather do UCB than Red Flag. But we have to start winning over more of our colleagues in the world, as we are shrinking in numbers and at some point our voice will approach irrelevant.

A lot of truth to that for sure.

What’s telling is that if a group of pretty like minded gun owners get divided over this issue, how are gun owners and non gun owners ever going to reach and agreement? The answer is they are not. That is the sad reality.

We are expected to concede time and time again to “just do something”. Enjoy your freedom while we have it, and teach as many people as you can to shoot! The more people are exposed to guns the less scared they are of them.

 

[jake23]

Im very pro 2A but gun violence is a problem statistically. In places lime chicago, crimanals break the law frequently. I do not believe their actions should infeige on my rights. The problem is how to keep the firearms out of the peoples hands who cant function at the most basic level in society without violating the rest of our rights. A lot of people think that the right to defend your self is not important. I disagree adamamently with those people.

Why do you think it is a problem statistically? I mean of course in the raw sense of the meaning there is a gun violence statistic. But it is a low probability that any one of us will experience it in our lifetimes. We are far ore likely to die behind the wheel or from some other far more preventable death than from a gun. That is what I meant by it is a statistically insignificant problem.

 

[mtmuley]

I was hoping this topic didn't come up here on HT this time. I do realize the importance of curbing these shootings. I also realized I am worlds apart from some members here regarding gun control. Or accessories control if it can be called that. Eye opening. mtmuley

 

[rwc101]

Why do you think it is a problem statistically? I mean of course in the raw sense of the meaning there is a gun violence statistic. But it is a low probability that any one of us will experience it in our lifetimes. We are far ore likely to die behind the wheel or from some other far more preventable death than from a gun. That is what I meant by it is a statistically insignificant problem.

I don't think statistical insignificance is compelling to non-gun owning public (and a great deal of gun owners as well) when it comes to gun violence. We expend a great deal of time and money attempting to avoid many tragic, statistically insignificant events because it's considered the right thing to do. They just aren't politically contentious like gun ownership.

 

[jake23]

I can pull up the stats if you really want but places like chicago and LA have a lot of shootings. The issue of red flag laws and the gun violence in these city is not for the same discussion thought. Gang violence involves “sane”(not clincal) people who make a choose whereas the shoots we are talking about “snap”(lack of a better term)

I agree completely. I have seen the same stats as you I am sure. Chicago and LA have something like 6 to 7 million people that live in those two cities. With probably triple that visiting each year. So while they may have a lot of shootings, per capita it is not very high when compared to other things like auto accidents or medical malpractice. That’s all I am trying to say

 

[jake23]

I don't think statistical insignificance is compelling to non-gun owning public (and a great deal of gun owners as well) when it comes to gun violence. We expend a great deal of time and money attempting to avoid many tragic, statistically insignificant events because it's considered the right thing to do. They just aren't politically contentious like gun ownership.

Absolutely true!

 

[jake23]

I was hoping this topic didn't come up here on HT this time. I do realize the importance of curbing these shootings. I also realized I am worlds apart from some members here regarding gun control. Or accessories control if it can be called that. Eye opening. mtmuley

What is really surprising to me is that the general attitude of most of the gunowners I know and come across here in CA have more of a “no compromise, not one more inch” type of attitude when it comes to the 2A. It’s just my observation that gunowners from pro 2A states are more willing to compromise on the issue of gun control. Of course I could be way wrong since I don’t know that many gun owners outside of CA. Just the few buddies I served with, and acquaintances I have met hunting out of state.

 

[hossblur]

This is a sticky balance, we haven't figured it out in 200 years and you and I aren't going to figure it out in 200 words. I share your concern about effective process, but don't believe that alone invalidates the discussion. So, let's agree to disagree. I don't expect to change your mind and I don't expect you to change mine. But for a few brief minutes we gave others a looking into some differing perspectives. Even if we disagree, I'd still buy you a beer and shoot a few rounds of sporting clays together if we crossed paths. Take care.

See me shoot, you might need three beers. Im glad folks disagree with me, life is boring otherwise

 

[Losing_Sanity]

Why do you think it is a problem statistically? I mean of course in the raw sense of the meaning there is a gun violence statistic. But it is a low probability that any one of us will experience it in our lifetimes. We are far ore likely to die behind the wheel or from some other far more preventable death than from a gun. That is what I meant by it is a statistically insignificant problem.

I don't feel that "statistics" reveal the real problem. At least the real problem is not being tracked for legitimate statistical value. That is to say, the real problem is not gun violence nor the loss of individual rights. So statistics that represent gun related deaths don't really tell the complete story. It's an indicator of overall mental health and all such crimes should fall into this category to determine the extent of the real problem. The real problem is the person, and guns are just an avenue. I think that's what we need to be focused on, eliminating the root cause of the illness and or stopping the behavior. That might sound a little strange, but is more to the point of the problem. "Gun Control" is just a band aid to satisfy the masses.

 

[jake23]

I don't feel that "statistics" reveal the real problem. At least the real problem is not being tract for legitimate statistical value. That is to say, the real problem is not gun violence nor the loss of individual rights. So statistics that represent gun related deaths don't really tell the complete story. It's an indicator of overall mental health and all such crimes should fall into this category to determine the extent of the real problem. The real problem is the person, and guns are just an avenue. I think that's what we need to be focused on, eliminating the root cause of the illness and or stopping the behavior. That might sound a little strange, but is more to the point of the problem. "Gun Control" is just a band aid to satisfy the masses.

You hit the nail on the head in my opinion! I couldn’t have said it better myself!

 

[RockinU]

What is really surprising to me is that the general attitude of most of the gunowners I know and come across here in CA have more of a “no compromise, not one more inch” type of attitude when it comes to the 2A. It’s just my observation that gunowners from pro 2A states are more willing to compromise on the issue of gun control. Of course I could be way wrong since I don’t know that many gun owners outside of CA. Just the few buddies I served with, and acquaintances I have met hunting out of state.

It frustrates me. It seems so apparent to me that if we give ground on one type of gun they won't stop there...it's been demonstrated. I understand how tired the "slippery slope" argument is, but reality is there to be seen.

I believe that both sides can agree that we don't want disturbed or mentally ill people to have the opportunity to hurt themselves or others using guns...that seems a pretty easy place to meet. From there we just have to decide what efforts might be productive in preventing that. Heck, somehow the post office got their employees to ease up on the violent trend they had running, and they never get anything right...surely broader society can figure something out.

 

[Gila]

I have said for a few years now that this is a solution in search of a problem.

Fact is that gun violence is a problem that is so statistically insignificant that it wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for people wanting to ban guns.

How many people in the US died from dropping an electronic device into the sink or bath tub? Where is the outrage and demand for action?

Too bad we as a society can’t spend this amount of time and effort on real problems that will effect most people on his forum.

It is just about fear mongering spawned by the media to feed political agendas. Going after the guns is just a smoke screen to dodge addressing the real social injustices like access to affordable healthcare and legal representation. Children needlessly killed by impaired drivers. How about the suicide rate amongst military veterans and teenagers. The list of social injustices is long for a country that is supposed to value Democracy and personal freedoms.

"Hey Joe! Leave the cyanide and the swords....just grab the guns"

 

[rtraverdavis]

On old (2011) but interesting quick read: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/

Wow. Definitely worth a read.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Wow. Definitely worth a read.

Pretty cool article, though distorted a tad bit. The Atlantic is a pretty terrible place to get any news or history from. Your better off reading the bathroom wall at a starbucks... it's quite similar. I'm sure a quick bing search will illustrate my point on that.

On the other hand you guys are awesome. This thread has been informative and very thought provoking. I have been enjoying it very much.

 

[RockinU]

I agree on The Atlantic, but despite writing for some decidedly left leaning rags, Winkler is known not only for his knowledge and understanding of the topic, but also being pretty fair and even handed when dealing with the issues.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I agree on The Atlantic, but despite writing for some decidedly left leaning rags, Winkler is known not only for his knowledge and understanding of the topic, but also being pretty fair and even handed when dealing with the issues.

I wondered cause it was a good read. It surprised me knowing where it came from.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Pretty cool article, though distorted a tad bit. The Atlantic is a pretty terrible place to get any news or history from.

I rarely cite the Atlantic due to its leanings, but thought this one was reasonably interesting.

 

[kmott]

just saw where there are four dead in California from a mass stabbing incident .

look out guys, now they got their eyes on yer butter knives.

for those who think more laws and gun bans will curb violence , look to Chicago. certainly hasn't done any good there

 

[Losing_Sanity]

just saw where there are four dead in California from a mass stabbing incident .

look out guys, now they got their eyes on yer butter knives.

for those who think more laws and gun bans will curb violence , look to Chicago. certainly hasn't done any good there

That's because they have not corrected or tackled the root problems.

In Chicago, much like other big cities, the gangs and their members want gun control. They want power and the advantage over others. So, if they eliminate law abiding citizens guns, they have an edge. The violence will not stop, and has not stopped by taking guns away because they want/need the violence to survive and gain power. Gangs and thugs like/want the lawlessness. Many of them have been conditioned to it and can not break away. Even in the prisons, without guns there is a hierarchy and to a degree lawlessness.