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Red flag warnings

5150 laws are already in place
That works for the truly certifiable crazy people. But the bar for involuntary commitment is extraordinarily high. I’m actually less in favor of those laws than the Rf laws due to the 5 year time period guns are not to be possessed.

My fear is that all of these people aren’t mentally ill in a DSM5 sense therefore it wouldn’t help.
 
So no guns for the half crazy? We're all screwed!!!

That works for the truly certifiable crazy people. But the bar for involuntary commitment is extraordinarily high. I’m actually less in favor of those laws than the Rf laws due to the 5 year time period guns are not to be possessed.

My fear is that all of these people aren’t mentally ill in a DSM5 sense therefore it wouldn’t help.
 
My fear is that all of these people aren’t mentally ill in a DSM5 sense therefore it wouldn’t help.
My consternation with RF laws is not based on the impact they will have on dangerous people, but with the impact RF laws have on people accused of being dangerous and deemed dangerous by a judge, but are actually not dangerous. CO’s RF law seems insufficient to prevent people from falling through the cracks. That’s not supposed to happen in this country.
 
The calculus is not what will prevent these tragedies, because nothing will, but rather what positions do we need to take to make sure pro 2ndAmend US Senate candidates and various state legislators can win elections by being competitive in suburban areas. This is a political perception problem, not a public safety problem. (not that safety isn't the issue, but I haven't seen any plan that will make us safe from the random unsuspecting neighborhood nut who goes off)
 
I am not saying we need to give recognition for return, what I am saying is we need some sense of the scale of the problem. If 5 guys get hosed but it works fine for 50,000 then that is a pretty darn efficient system. But if 10 guys get hosed and 1 works the way it is supposed to that is a problem. In a country with 350 million people, having 4 or 5 anecdotal stories floating around the internet is just not a good basis for policy consideration.

And yes, gun owners should help in the drafting to make sure that quick hearings, effective return processes and consequences for bad faith accusers are part of it. But my guess is they will boycott and be stuck with the gun hater version. (See Obamacare).

IMO even once is inexcusable. YMMV.
 
Hoss, I understand the sentiment completely and to a degree it is compelling but all the comparisons to other laws that have been passed fail to contend with the extraordinary reality that others may be deprived of the most basic of rights to live in order to walk circumspectly around the right of an individual to bear arms.

With respect and not trying to be a jackass, what should we do with people who are clearly dangerous and possess both the intent and ability to do harm to others?

Why are you afraid to not be a jackass?

Randy has created a great space. Guys for the most part don't flame throw.

Others will be less simple than me.

Honest answer is you can't do anything. Im a pretty peaceful dude. But touch my daughter ill break your neck. Im i crazy? I mean to do you harm.

I throw flames at Mike Lee. Am nearly on first name basis with Rob Bishops local office manager.

Am i crazy?

I went to school with a couple goth kids. Black everything, horror films, chitty music. Red flag them?

Now one is a school teacher.

You can't lock up a dude who looks at Playboy because he MIGHT be a sexual predator.

Can't lock up a dude with a fast car because he MIGHT drive reckless.

Can't lick up a dude buying a beer because he MIGHT drive drunk(unless your in utah)

I used to drive a 78 Camaro. Had a mullet, hung out at a hot chicks house way too late, way too often.

I got followed home every weekend by the local cop. Because i MIGHT do something he could ticket me on.

So. Long answer. You can't do anything until something happens.
 
IMO even once is inexcusable. YMMV.
Is there any human process that involves 350 million people that has a zero failure rate? Medical procedures? The death penalty? Termination of parental rights? I don’t hear any talk from conservatives of absence of zero failure rate in those settings meaning they have to stop. And those things are more
important than a hunting rifle - ymmv
 
My consternation with RF laws is not based on the impact they will have on dangerous people, but with the impact RF laws have on people accused of being dangerous and deemed dangerous by a judge, but are actually not dangerous. CO’s RF law seems insufficient to prevent people from falling through the cracks. That’s not supposed to happen in this country.
Vikings guy said in a previous post that the percentage of people affected adversely should be part of evaluating the effectiveness. I don’t believe that there will be many who actually go before a judge that are wrongly deemed dangerous. I know we like to pile on judges and legislators etc but generally judges are intelligent insightful people. As I write this there will be several who have a story, again we are talking about such a small number of bad judges that it doesn’t move the needle in a statistical sense but it may be immensely personal to some here or anywhere else.

As has been said before, if you are unwilling for a single person to be adversely affected who is truly innocent then there is no law or policy that will ever be acceptable. I don’t want to see anyone adversely affected but I am willing for there to be a small number who are if it helps.

I appreciate the discussion if for no other reason than to refine my thoughts and see some different viewpoints from people I have come to respect over the last couple years.
 
Is there any human process that involves 350 million people that has a zero failure rate? Medical procedures? The death penalty? Termination of parental rights? I don’t hear any talk from conservatives of absence of zero failure rate in those settings meaning they have to stop. And those things are more
important than a hunting rifle - ymmv

It doesn't involve even a fraction of that many. When someone has been ordered by the court 3 times to return something yet fails to do it then there's NO EXCUSE for that. You can give them a pass all you want to to, but I won't.
 
It doesn't involve even a fraction of that many. When someone has been ordered by the court 3 times to return something yet fails to do it then there's NO EXCUSE for that. You can give them a pass all you want to to, but I won't.
I, like you, will not give the individual(s) a pass, but a one in a thousand failure rate should not condemn an entire process - especially when it is not life threatening.
 
Vikings guy said in a previous post that the percentage of people affected adversely should be part of evaluating the effectiveness.
I don't believe anyone can honestly evaluate the effectiveness of RF laws or determine how many people are adversely affected by those laws. My question to RF law supporters would be: What is the allowable percentage of American citizens that can be denied their 2A rights so that the populace's sense of security inflates to the point that they feel safe? If the intent of RF laws is get politicians reelected and make people feel safe reguardless of how many are denied a constitutional right, then RF laws will be effective based on those criteria. If people want to see what variables are indicative of people that commit violent crime, the FBI has been collecting that data for decades.
 
.0001% or less would be an appropriate number to gauge effectiveness in my mind. That should be about one in a million. And for the sake of clarity, I would add to you quote “denied their rights “temporarily.””
 
It's hard to make an argument with people like this idiot right here (Click Here). I just don't know what to say when you have people like this guy. He should definatley be watched real close from here on out. He is lucky no one shot him, which could lead to another situation all together.
 
It's hard to make an argument with people like this idiot right here (Click Here). I just don't know what to say when you have people like this guy. He should definatley be watched real close from here on out. He is lucky no one shot him, which could lead to another situation all together.

That article was hard to read. It kept saying he was arrested for making a terroristic threat. But it never said what that threat was. So I am left wondering. I can’t help but imagine if the threat was just being armed in Walmart?

I don’t know if that is legal where he was or not. But it is perfectly legal in a lot of areas.
 
That article was hard to read. It kept saying he was arrested for making a terroristic threat. But it never said what that threat was. So I am left wondering. I can’t help but imagine if the threat was just being armed in Walmart?

I don’t know if that is legal where he was or not. But it is perfectly legal in a lot of areas.
Absolutely... But pretty poor judgment that does not demonstrate rational thinking or sound judgment. Just because it might be legal, does not mean that you should flaunt it. Poor timing at any rate and does not help the argument.
 
Absolutely... But pretty poor judgment that does not demonstrate rational thinking or sound judgment. Just because it might be legal, does not mean that you should flaunt it. Poor timing at any rate and does not help the argument.
For sure. Maybe he doesn’t watch the news?? I can’t make excuses for him. Just pointing out that while a lot of us and the country might take that as a threat, it is a normal everyday occurrence in a lot of parts of this country. When I was in the Rawlins Walmart not to long ago I saw a bunch of people carrying. No one freaked out and drew down on them. Is it because he had an AR? Or did he do/ say something threatening? That article doesn’t say.
 
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