WY NR hunters...HB236

[Big Fin]

Shouldn't ban him for the comment, yes it was an ugly comment and I'll be the first to disagree with it. Before everyone goes off on me I do want to state that my dad was in the military and my younger brother currently is serving. I've heard comments like this from others about my brother or dad, my mom hates, it when people say it, I do too. But I always remind her that people like my brother, dad, John, and many millions more served to allows us to have those freedoms to say those comments, and my brother will be the first to agree with me on that. If you're going to ban someone because of a comment they made or because of their personality then you might as well shut down the entire site. Now this forum is part of a business and Randy can do with it as he wants, that's his right, but you can't be a supporter of the 1st Amendment, and then turn around and ban someone because you or others don't like their comments. Might as well remove any of the threads about control too if you're going to do that. I know I'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this post, which I'll more than accept but when I see fellow American trying to restrict another American's opinions or point of view, I view that as an insult to my dad, brother, John and many others that have done so much for the freedoms we have. Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

NEHunter - You do a good job of articulating all I have struggled with in moderating this site over the years. I have a very lenient policy on allowing different opinions and differing behaviors.

Yet, as part of my 5th Amendment rights, I provided a registration agreement that every person has to agree to, in order to be part of this forum. No one is coerced or forced to agree to those terms. This is a free PRIVATE forum, subject to the rules one agrees to when registering. I have been very accommodating to all members when enforcing the rules each have agreed upon in registering for this forum.

I fully respect everyone's 1st Amendment rights, our 2nd Amendment, every right provided us under the Constitution and the amendments to such. I also respect those who have served to protect the rights we all enjoy.

I do believe that with these rights we are granted, comes some responsibility in the use of those rights. Failure to exercise any responsibility and act as though the right in question is absolute, is usually when problems occur.

As some point, a person who exercises their 1st Amendment right with almost no responsibility, and in complete disregard for my 5th Amendment rights that they agreed to when registering, is going to see me exercise my 5th Amendment rights and they can go find a different forum to exercise their 1st Amendment rights. Just a function of how it works.

This is not about a person providing a differing opinion. This is not about dialogue and discourse that results in some heated exchanges. This is about some people using this forum for nothing more than expression of their own belligerence. People who have a long track record of abusing the terms of the rules they agreed to when signing up.

I think as you learn more about this forum and read many of the past threads, you will see I have the lightest moderation of pretty much any web forum you will visit. That being said, the way things have digressed lately, my eject button is on a hair trigger right now.

Thanks for the way you provided your comments. I fully understand what you are stating and your points are the reason why I have been so tolerant of differing opinions and different behaviors.

 

[Mudranger1]

please don't eject me for siding with a crossbow that shoots lighted nocks in Montana I will behave

 

[sneakem]

There are a few more here who seem to use this site as nothing more than a place to express their alter ego, providing no value, having no interest of furthering intelligent debate, share no information, and only serve to run off new members. Anyone who can't have a discussion without getting pissed off at a person with a differing opinion, needs to pack their keyboard and head to a different site. Differences are good, when expressed intelligently. When expressed at the toddler level, they have no use here.

2013 will be the year when Hunt Talk does a little house cleaning for the betterment of intelligent discussion and to clear the debris for the many great members who add value to this site. Cleaning time it is, and I am the janitor.

Just checking to make sure I haven't been nuked....

More seriously Randy moderates very lightly... I know I've posted some offensive crap on here, all in good humor though....

Getting back to the subject though... they'll do what they want and continue to raise prices and we'll continue to pay. It's an addiction of horns and meat for most of us... like gambling and prostit.... well I meant to say prescription drugs... and we'll keep hitting the feeder bar like rats!!

 

[Khunter]

there is no reason not to have some limits versus a complete free for all.

However, a requirement for intellegent discourse is far too lofty a standard and this place will be a ghost town in no time if enforced. We are talkin' about hardcore hunters afterall. Few Rhodes Scholars among the group.

 

[noharleyyet]

Not true KHunter, Montanny's refer to anyone outside their own private cosmic epicenter as Road Scholars.

 

[BuzzH]

Never have met a Texan that didnt wish they were a Montanan...and thats the truth.

Maybe you'll get it right in the next life-time NHY...

 

[TheJason]

Speaking of the Native Montana licenses, here is my beef with them. What kind of entitlement does someone get just because they were born there? Really, say a family moves to MT when the kids are five. They live there, go to school, parents work and pay taxes, kids go to college, find jobs, again support the local economy.

Then, one day they get a great offer in another state. Why should they be penalized relative to the same life story, differing only by the fact that they were born in MT? I don't get it (really I do, Buzz hit it with the self serving legislator).

There are lots of folks in this world that contributed a whole hell of a lot more to Montana's economy than some of the folks that were born there and moved away.

It doesn't bother me that I pay more as a non-resident, but it chaps my arse that the state then gives out welfare tags just because you were born there. I pay my freight, anyone else that moved away for a better job, family, whatever your reason should do the same.

No jabs at you folks who are taking the welfare license, a very good friend of mine does and I give him grief for it all the time.

 

[TheJason]

And, speaking of the WY price increase, it's disheartening that they would lean solely on the non-resident. HOWEVER, their resident fee structure is whole heck of a lot more palatable for me to look at and take a fee increase than is Montana's.

I get it 100% that these states have a marketable resource that they can sell in order to do good things for game management. However, I don't get it that so many of the residents feel no sense of obligation to pay more for what they get. When you look at the length of season, and the amount of general opportunity on an OTC tag, it's quite ridiculous for folks to complain about paying what they do.

 

[BuzzH]

JLS,

You wont get any arguement out of me with your post...I agree.

I lucked out and drew the regular NR combo license every year from 2001-present. I was thinking how great it was to just be able to pay full NR price for the coming home to hunt license.

The Native MT license is a flat give-away.

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

I understand all the opinions on both sides. I do have to say that the price increase will not make me stop hunting out of state. With that said, it may affect the frequency and my choice of state in the future. Like it or not, the states essentially compete with one another for non resident hunters. I'm like a lot of guys on here. I've got a wife and a couple kids, mortgage, etc. I've got a certain amount of money I'm willing to spend each year on my recreational trips with the guys. This bill will make us take a closer look at the other western states to determine if this is still the best opportunity for the price. It will also make us consider doing alternative trips (i.e. remote Ontario canoe trips) and skip the hunting trips all together. If Wyoming is still the best value for the money then we'll be back. If it's not, then they'll likely lose some business from us.

I'm not entirely opposed to the price increase, but the states need to realize that they are competing against a lot of other states and other locations for our business. If this is still the best value for our money (and if the cost fits in all the guys budgets), then we'll be back.

IMHO, this will result in a decrease in revenue for the state (especially long term and specifically on the deer and antelope tags like Buzz predicted).

If someone's going to decide not to hunt over a less than $100 increase, then they need to take a step back and look at what hunting and getting together with hunting buddies really means to them. You'd be amazed at how easy it is to shave off $100 out of your regular budget to cover the cost of the increase. It's not going to stop me from going up there and hunting antelope and maybe elk because my buddies and memories are worth more than $100 to me.

I agree with both of you on this. I can make cuts if needed to absorb the rate increase if needed. . .maybe not get a new pair of camo pants or not spend as much at every Cabela's or Bass Pro shop that I pass on the way out. Like John said, I will not let it stand in the way of hunting with my Dad and a few of my life long friends. I think that if we look around, every states R and NR prices are pretty far apart. I think the raising of JUST the NR licenses may upset a few, but, it is what it is. If your thinking about not going out to Wyoming to hunt antelope because of the increase. . .rethink that...its worth it for sure. . .I'm hooked after 1 season. just my 2 cents.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Another Res Opinion

I am a res of Wyo and I think sticking the bill on non res is a bunch of crap. I think we all need to pay our way and I dont think us resident's are pulling our weight. What's fair is in the eye of the beholder but I think we can all agree this is a BS move to keep constituents from complaining.

I disagree that the proposed increases are too much. I have thought and still do think that the cheapest part of hunting is the license. If most people would cut out a few non-essentials in their lives then any increase would not even be an issue. But we will continue to drink our $4 coffee, $1.25 soda and $35 steak and complain that we can't afford to hunt.

If there was no way to afford a $300 increase in the tag then you couldn't afford the tag at the previous price.

Wyoming has some of the best hunting opportunities around and we give away licenses to residents.

My $0.02.

 

[WV Hunter]

I hate to see an increase simply because it hits my pocket and takes special draws off the table for me. States are going to do what's best for the their residents and for their resources. Time will only tell if a NR increase is what's best. I think the only thing that may really take a hit would be the special draw prices going forward. I would say there will be a pretty good point dump in the deer and antelope draws this year though. Wyoming is a great state to hunt and they have pretty liberal seasons and the current prices are a great deal for first time western hunters wanting to get their feet wet. I'll continue to enter the Wyoming draws for elk and antelope but I'll probably only enter one or the other instead of both from now on.

WV Hunter

 

[Khunter]

Never have met a Texan that didnt wish they were a Montanan...and thats the truth.

Maybe you'll get it right in the next life-time NHY...

Know a lot of texans that bought a healthy slice of Montana to sate that desire without relinquishing citizenship to the republic of Texas.

 

[thecrittergitter]

Speaking of the Native Montana licenses, here is my beef with them. What kind of entitlement does someone get just because they were born there? Really, say a family moves to MT when the kids are five. They live there, go to school, parents work and pay taxes, kids go to college, find jobs, again support the local economy.

Then, one day they get a great offer in another state. Why should they be penalized relative to the same life story, differing only by the fact that they were born in MT? I don't get it (really I do, Buzz hit it with the self serving legislator).

There are lots of folks in this world that contributed a whole hell of a lot more to Montana's economy than some of the folks that were born there and moved away.

It doesn't bother me that I pay more as a non-resident, but it chaps my arse that the state then gives out welfare tags just because you were born there. I pay my freight, anyone else that moved away for a better job, family, whatever your reason should do the same.

No jabs at you folks who are taking the welfare license, a very good friend of mine does and I give him grief for it all the time.

I think they should have doubled the cost of a Montana Resident hunting license before they did the come home to hunt deal. WY resident tags are pretty damn cheap too, that bill should have included an increase to residents as well. Montana is ridiculous though. What is it, like $100 bucks to fish all you want, grab up a deer tag, elk tag, bear tag, state land use tag.....etc.... I know I'd pay twice that if it meant the money was well used to support proper game management.

JLS has a good point about moving here young......I'd have a hard time considering my friend not a montana native that came to montana in kindergarten.....

I haven't read all the details of qualifying for the come home to hunt program but being just born here is a pretty lame qualification. Hell, that would mean my oldest daughter would never qualify but my two sons and other daughter would??

 

[BuzzH]

They are actually 2 different programs.

The come home to hunt licenses, the only requirement is that you must have lived in Montana and bought Resident hunting licenses, still have family living in Montana. But, you pay full price for the NR tag, just a seperate pool, meaning you're assured a tag. (Which is now no big deal, as they have leftover NR combo licenses now).

The Native Montana license, to qualify you must have family still living in Montana (Mother, Father, or Brother/Sister), and you need to provide proof of being born in Montana. These tags are at the lower rate, of 4x the resident fees...bird, deer A, elk, and fishing only. Kind of weird deal that you pay more for a Deer-B tag and Elk-B tag than you do for your A tag and general elk under this bill???

 

[thecrittergitter]

They are actually 2 different programs.

The come home to hunt licenses, the only requirement is that you must have lived in Montana and bought Resident hunting licenses, still have family living in Montana. But, you pay full price for the NR tag, just a seperate pool, meaning you're assured a tag. (Which is now no big deal, as they have leftover NR combo licenses now).

The Native Montana license, to qualify you must have family still living in Montana (Mother, Father, or Brother/Sister), and you need to provide proof of being born in Montana. These tags are at the lower rate, of 4x the resident fees...bird, deer A, elk, and fishing only. Kind of weird deal that you pay more for a Deer-B tag and Elk-B tag than you do for your A tag and general elk under this bill???

Ah, thanks for the clerification, I wasn't aware of the two separate.

 

[Zim]

Just wonder how this increase will make or break someone's decision to plan a hunt or not.

Our group was partially influenced by the hike to burn our elk points, but there were other factors too. We ended up picking a unit we'll basically have a 100% chance of drawing with 6 2/3rds NR points.

I am on my own for pronghorn, and was squarely on the fence as to waiting for the herd to improve. This bill tipped my scale so I will be applying for a ~60% draw unit with max points.

 

[mixedbag]

How hard would it be for states to approve a percentage increase by the year??I hate taking these big hits all at once,and having points built up that will get wasted or spent at a new higher amount.I don't think hunters would cry so much if they knew going in there would be a 5%(example)increase in fees per year.this should go for residents and NR though.Adding hundreds at one time does make it tough and other businesses will suffer.I pay the fees because its something that I enjoy doing,but there is a limit.I think allowing war veterans a chance to get resident pricing was a cool idea.Though it wouldn't help me at all.It does seem like a good jesture states should consider
As far as the Wydh comment,I don't think he was being seriously disrespectful.I think it was more of a joke.John is known for putting out some pretty odd comments and I think he was just giving him a little back.Sometimes you get back what you've been giving,and I think thats all it was;though not in the best taste I agree.Banning him without warning I can't really agree with but its not my site.I can say he has alot to offer and has offered to help me with some Ak hunting plans.Trust me, that alone is hard to come by on this site anymore.People say things and in hind site realize it wasn't a good idea.Just something I think should be considered ahead of banning anyone.This place needs more helpful guys then the "go figure it out yourself" guys.And, I've been seeing new guys getting hammered all the time anymore to where I respond to them,with help, in a pm rather then the open forums.

 

[BuzzH]

mixedbag,

The incremental increases have been recommended, a bill was introduced this year in Wyoming that would have done that...died in committee.

IME, any fee increase will be complained about, whether R or NR, incrementally, or every few years.

Also, I can tell you that most people wont be sharing advice on units, etc. via the open forum, but I know that a lot of guys get a lot of help if they send PM's.

I also think general drawing questions, application deadlines, etc. are shared pretty much all the time by anyone that asks. Theres also some resources if you navigate Randy's site here that can be real helpful.

 

[Big Fin]

.Banning him without warning I can't really agree with but its not my site.I can say he has alot to offer and has offered to help me with some Ak hunting plans.Trust me, that alone is hard to come by on this site anymore.People say things and in hind site realize it wasn't a good idea.Just something I think should be considered ahead of banning anyone.This place needs more helpful guys then the "go figure it out yourself" guys.And, I've been seeing new guys getting hammered all the time anymore to where I respond to them,with help, in a pm rather then the open forums.

Trust me, it was not without warning. And, it was not just one off the cuff remark that was taken wrong. And, a lot was considered, before banning anyone. To get banned from this site, your behavior has to be very egregious and consistently belligerent beyond the bounds of reasonableness.

I do agree this place benefits from the helpful guys. I am tired of people hammering new guys and that is no longer going to be tolerated. The banned person had many instances of hammering new guys.

Thanks to you for reaching out and helping those people via pm.