Welfare ranchers in MT want even more

[schmalts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lostagain:
The principle if the thing is the elk are the state's, not the individual's. The private land is private and the owner ought to be able to do as they wish. But the damage money shouldn't go to anyone charges for access to remove "surplus" game. IMO, anyone who pays for access should be hung by their balls on the fence, if there was no market for it, noone would be able to sell theirs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats the whole point that needs to be addressed, no rancher should get tags to sell if they are collecting any money for elk overpopulation.
Now the other hand, if the rancher manages his elk property properly and has huge bulls he could charge tresspass fees, as long as he isnt getting welfare money for the elk, and the tags are from the normal draw system. That would be one insentive for the rancher to let guys kill cows for free and help him help himself. No state should stoop as low as NM is currently doing and spend huge amounts of money to fence in private ranches because the SOB wont let hunters kill the elk for him.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-26-2002 19:49: Message edited by: schmalts ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

Ithaca,

Why can Potlatch turn a profit grazing their land and the forest service and BLM cannot? Is it because they only hire one person to do the job of one, and not ten? Talk about welfare!

The problem with the Block Management program is that it is another something for nothing program. Rich non residents pay to provide us access to private lands. We then cry when the good lands are leased up for the use of rich non residents, leaving only poor areas for us to hunt. Another problem is everyone wants to shot a big buck or bull. Nobody wants to shoot antlerless animals. Another problem is neighboring ranches that do not allow hunting. The animals yard up on these lands during hunting season then spead out to neighboring ranches during the off season.

One option to solve some of these problems is to raise the price of resident tags so we are not as dependent on the non resident revenue, and then seriously limit the non resident hunters. Few people will like this idea but it does make some sense. Maybe keep youth licenses and antlerless tags the same, and raise the others. Afterall hunting in Montana by Montanan's is one hell of a bargain.

Paul

 

[dgibson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One option to solve some of these problems is to raise the price of resident tags so we are not as dependent on the non resident revenue, and then seriously limit the non resident hunters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bingo. As long as the situation exists whereby the state's DNR can't do their job without nonresident funds, things will never improve for residents. This ranching thing is an interesting option if it could ever be made to happen. Provide special tags for private lands, but the STATE does the selling and gets the money. That way the rancher gets the herd reduction he "needs," and the state gets a shot in the arm. But then the residents cry foul for having to pay to hunt "their" animals, so the "rich non-residents" are brought in to buy the tags again. Is there no end?

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, Is Potlatch leasing grazing rights to ranchers like the BLM? If not then you can't compare what they're doing. If they're grazing their own land and making a profit that would be more comparable to a rancher grazing his own land.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-30-2002 13:40: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

What ya mean IT? You saying Potlatch is a cattle company?
Potlatch is a big landowner that leases out their extra graze to other cattle outfits. OH that makes Pot just like the BLM/USFS.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-31-2002 14:10: Message edited by: Lostagain ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Lost, You must be drunk again. Read the post again real slow.

 

[Lostagain]

IT, I put the answers after the questions just like gov't workers like it to be.
IT="Paul, Is Potlatch leasing grazing rights to ranchers like the BLM? If not then you can't compare what they're doing. If they're grazing their own land and making a profit that would be more comparable to a rancher grazing his own land."
Yes, then comparison is same.
No, not like a rancher.

 

[Ithaca 37]

I wonder how much Potlatch spends to develop water for their grazers? The BLM spends lots.

 

[Lostagain]

How much?

 

[Lostagain]

"Now the other hand, if the rancher manages his elk property properly and has huge bulls he could charge tresspass fees, as long as he isnt getting welfare money for the elk, and the tags are from the normal draw system."
yes, but still the market is for big racks, and people pay for them. That is the problem, IMO. look through these posts on this site and the others, everyone asks how it scored. Some of the people make a point of stating it was public landso you can figure out which ones were private even tho not a one would admit it. Someone must be paying all these trespass fees and includes people posting here. Now they will come defend it like it matters.
Private ground you should be able to do what ya want....charge or not charge , allow hunting, keep people off. But by god if you do not allow free hunting for game then you shouldn't be at the trough to collect.
MY OPINION ==As you folks that pay a "trespass"/canned fee....you're just adding to the problem.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Lost again.. I sort of agree with you but will be the first to admit I have paid tresspass fees to hunt antelope.. not for a few years, but I did in the past before I had permission on a few places that I do now. I didn't know how to escape the mobs of lope hunters on the public and many of the Block Mgt places. I truely love to hunt antelope and really hated seeing so much blantent BS by 90% of the jackasses out there on opening day of antelope season. Funny thing is, I've never killed a true trophy antelope where I paid a trespass fee (other than in Arizona). I've paid tresspass fees maybe 4-5 times in MT and though I did take a couple 14-15" bucks, they were nothing special. The 4 best MT bucks I've taken were on BLM/Block Mgt/and no trespass fee areas.

I paid a $100 trespass fee to hunt lopes on a ranch in WYoming a couple years ago and killed a buck on a differnet place, where the guy just gave me permission to go. I must admit it was fun having access to that certain ranch from the trespass fee where I camped, but it was ironic that the 3 best bucks I saw were on open properties or public land.

One trepass fee I do not regret is the one I paid in AZ, and the most I've ever paid. ($500). I was reluctant to pay, but I drew a premium tag with very low odds of ever drawing. Immediate after the draw I was told by AZ G&F that private land was a HUGE issue there, most of the goats on two big ranches. One didn't let me hunt, the other said, "We only let 2 hunters a year, $500 dollars each." Well I figured that would be just a fraction of what I would spend on gas, food, license, hotel.. so I agreed. Best thing I ever did. Greatest most hospitable folks I've ever met. The rancher spent a whole weekend (I showed up 5 days prior to the 4 day season) with me showing me the goats and boundaries. He offered me a room to stay and his wife cooked delicious meals for me and they let me clean up at night in thier house.. (for 8 days!!). The day I shot my goat, the landowner was glassing and saw it happen. He came out with a tarp and helped me drag it about a half mile to the road. I still send these guys letter ever now and then.

Anyhow, just my experiences from trespass fees... I don't like them, don't think they are necessarily good for hunting, but much better than the Ranching for Rich Guys proposal from stockgrowers or Martz. Antelope is the only species I've ever paid a trespass fee to hunt. I'm not ashamed of it either, though i don't do it anymore. Now I just work in the summer for the rancher who lets me hunt.. same diff really, and they are also very nice folks who hardly let anyone hunt. It's a give and take with landowners.. nobody should expect a landowner to open gates. I sure wouldn't if I had a big spread.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Most of the ranchers that I have talked to that don't let hunters on, is because they leave garbage, leave gates open the need to be closed, leave stray bullets in places they shouldn't (i.e. one rancers living room window), and they leave vehicle tracks in other places besides the roads. If I owned a large spread, I would probably be very select on what and who I let in....
I have never paid trespass fees....I see so much ground out there that can be explored that I personally just don't see the need...

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-05-2003 07:25: Message edited by: ELKCHSR ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

Good post Greenhorn,

Its amazing what a little respect for the landowners land and their way of of life, and a willingness to give a little will get you in return.

Paul

 

[ELKCHSR]

I also haul a pickup load of garbage out every year...That seems to help when the landowners see you doing that..