Townsend Elk Slaughter II

[BuzzH]

Theres already landowner preference in Montana.

Creating LO tags isn't going to solve this problem. I honestly hope the MT hunters are organized enough to keep LO tags out of Montana, or at the very least, antlerless only and non-transferable.

 

[RobG]

Theres already landowner preference in Montana.

Creating LO tags isn't going to solve this problem.

Nope, and I don't think that is why they are a comin

 

[tjones]

They will have a long tough road, before they are a "comin"

 

[BuzzH]

tjones,

I agree...if MT hunters cant rally behind that issue, we're done.

 

[bigskyblueman]

The old A-7 tag system used in the Madison Valley years ago had over 95 percent cow tags filled, down on the flats after the general season. Limited in scope, but extending over two months .Revisiting the hunt in certain areas might be worthwhile.

 

[TheJason]

And just how many landowners will call people they don't know? I would prefer an opportunity to use the tag that I would be paying for.

Under the current damage hunt structure, the landowners don't have to call the hunters. FWP does it for them.

I'm sure they could work something similar here.

 

[Rat Fink]

Buzz my point is that if FWP is going to be selling extra tags to thin the cow herds and try to alleviate harboring, then those folks that are buying the tags should be allowed at least a reasonable chance and opportunity to use those tags. That is why I prefer the game damage hunt roster approach over a rancher just calling up his buddies to come shoot elk. It's not that I personally need to fill my freezer, just a fairness thing for tag holders and access to the animals we all own as residents. It is not a selfishness thing about what is in it for me, but trying to look at the bigger picture.

I can say this, if I had access to the big herds down on the private lands, I would not have had to spend 10 hours with multiple loads packing my elk off the mountain this year.

 

[bigskyblueman]

The old A-7 tag system used in the Madison Valley years ago had over 95 percent cow tags filled, down on the flats after the general season. Limited in scope, but extending over two months .Revisiting the hunt in certain areas might be worthwhile.

 

[RobG]

The old A-7 tag system used in the Madison Valley years ago had over 95 percent cow tags filled, down on the flats after the general season. Limited in scope, but extending over two months .Revisiting the hunt in certain areas might be worthwhile.

That's basically what I'm talking about. Why did it go away?

 

[tjones]

We just had a meeting about bring back A7's. These were very popular here in the Bitterroot. We were told they went away because the licensing division didn't like dealing with the successful applicants having to send back their general elk license. Had nothing to do with game management.

Tailing wagging the dog so to speak.

 

[belly-deep]

Open season on the cows is relatively new IIRC.

Talk to some grandfathers, fathers, uncles, etc.

Either sex seasons were the norm.

 

[RobG]

Talk to some grandfathers, fathers, uncles, etc.

Either sex seasons were the norm.

The norm? Not that I remember over the last 35 years, excepting the last 8-10 years. Easy to draw cow permits yes, but not over the counter. I assume the open season on cows was in response to Barrett's bill.

 

[tjones]

From 2004 to 2009 in the Root we had a 3 week sometimes 2 week either sex season. No cow permit required.

A very dark time for elk.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz my point is that if FWP is going to be selling extra tags to thin the cow herds and try to alleviate harboring, then those folks that are buying the tags should be allowed at least a reasonable chance and opportunity to use those tags. That is why I prefer the game damage hunt roster approach over a rancher just calling up his buddies to come shoot elk. It's not that I personally need to fill my freezer, just a fairness thing for tag holders and access to the animals we all own as residents. It is not a selfishness thing about what is in it for me, but trying to look at the bigger picture.

I can say this, if I had access to the big herds down on the private lands, I would not have had to spend 10 hours with multiple loads packing my elk off the mountain this year.

You aren't thinking big picture. Look past 1 year and your "opportunity" and "reasonable chance" THIS YEAR. Think about the long-term and how you solve the harboring issue.

What I propose is that over time, the elk harboring on the private would go away if the landowners used the list or didn't.

Why?

Because the huntable population of elk on public ground isn't being hammered via general tags or huge numbers of elk b tags that are valid on both public and private (the structure we're using NOW, and obviously isn't working).

If the landowners don't want to call or allow some level of public hunting, don't force them to, you cant anyway. But, what you can do is allow those elk herds to grow. As the herds get bigger and bigger, more elk will start using the surrounding public more and more (if you severely limit elk b-tag numbers valid for public land even sooner and more). No need for hunters to surround and have a shoot-out when there are accessible elk on public.

As elk start using the public land more, SLOWLY increase the b-tag quotas to reflect the huntable, public land elk. Let the landowners come up with a solution to their woes on their PRIVATE land and the harbored elk.

All the MTFWP should be worrying about is managing the elk that are on public, or private land elk where landowners are in need of assistance and willing to work with the MTFWP/Hunters, I cant force landowners to do anything, only offer solutions that may or may not agree with.

Theres a lot more to the harboring issue, and I can tell you for 100% fact, that much of it has to do with 11+ weeks of constant pressure on elk.

The A-7 license idea just adds more pressure to the herd and still doesn't solve the issue of the highly pressured herds staying on private land during MT's 11 week slug-fest. If those elk were on public more and private less, there would be more opportunity for all. Shooting them in December and January, while reducing the herd and assuring landowners "their bulls" wont be shot, is not changing the pattern that elk have developed of harboring on private. That's what needs to change, we need to get elk back to using public lands.

There is going to have to be some tough decisions made in Montana, and from what I'm seeing, and hear from the Residents, they just aren't willing to really do what needs to be done.

You're responses are classic examples of this...opportunity NOW at all costs.

 

[HSi-ESi]

I don't remember the exact years I did some late hunts in Madison Valley - but they were around 2005-2008. Limited draw tags - and I could hunt on my regular tags throughout archery and rifle. If I didn't fill - then I had a shot at a late season cow. I remember going through the 'Madison Valley Ranch Association' - you showed up in downtown Ennis a couple hours before sunrise and were assigned a 'guide'. The guide simply showed you the boundaries of where you could go.

I did see some crappy ethics displayed by other hunters (way too long of shots on running elk). One guy had a rangefinder - but I don't think he knew how to use it. He told me later that the elk were 500 yards, but it was over 1000.

I had to put down 1 cow that a guy wounded since he 'couldn't get to it because the snow was too deep'.

I think we need some pressure to get elk out of those low-lands. LO tags aren't the solution.

For the record, I would rather pack an elk than drive to it.

Any one know why those Madison Valley Ranch Assoc. hunts were discontinued? Not that I'm in favor of doing them in the old form - but in theory it is a way to pressure elk (just needs to be done early in the season and often).

 

[sra61]

It seems to me that you have to pressure the elk on the private to move them. In order for that to happen you have to make it attractive to the landowners to allow that to happen. I think some states like Colorado and Utah have had programs in place that ended up enhancing the overall game herds as well as gaining access to those private lands that were sanctuaries for the elk especially. The bottom line is always money. IMHO

 

[shoots-straight]

The A-7 license idea just adds more pressure to the herd and still doesn't solve the issue of the highly pressured herds staying on private land during MT's 11 week slug-fest. If those elk were on public more and private less, there would be more opportunity for all. Shooting them in December and January, while reducing the herd and assuring landowners "their bulls" wont be shot, is not changing the pattern that elk have developed of harboring on private. That's what needs to change, we need to get elk back to using public lands.

Is what we kicked around the other night was making the A-7's good for private lands only or give a large number of them out for private lands only. I think we keep the 5 week general structure in place to keep from giving incentive for leasing.

 

[bigskyblueman]

FWP began doing away with late season cow hunts and general season extensions , ostensibly because the cost of administering and enforcing them didn't meet the desired elk reduction numbers, the A-7 got put in the same pot. That was the answer I got.

 

[alexrussell]

I concur with BRI. While there is absolutely no excuse for shootouts which seemed to have spiked this year (we should seize vehicles and revoke hunt/fish privileges), this is only but a symptom of a bigger and growing wicked problem of elk leaving public land and concentrating on private land then being taught and conditioned to stay on private land all year where life is generally easier than on the less caloric-rich, more disturbed public land.

The change in land ownership and tolerance for elk on private land will continue to increase hunter frustration and exasperation resulting in more, not less shootouts. The state owns the wildlife but how much control can the state exert over wildlife that more and more resides exclusively on private land?

 

[Kingsnake]

Still looking forward to my first elk hunt out west (whenever that may be), but I would probably cry if this was what I travelled thousands of miles to participate in or even witness.

Am I expecting too much solitude and challenge as a result of watching cleverly edited hunting videos?