Townsend Elk Slaughter II

[Ben Lamb]

I painted my truck camo so they can't hear me coming.

 

[TheJason]

The Montana Supreme Court has upheld out-of-jurisdiction arrests by law enforcement officials on several occasions. Apparently the State is not concerned about civil suits.

Point is, there is no legal obstacle between wardens and enforcement of the criminal code. Resource allocation and training are another matter, and dictated by department policy.

Other than they don't have full peace office authority under MCA, there is no legal obstacle.

Certainly, out of jurisdiction arrests can be and are made on occasion when there is sufficient exigency to warrant the action.

 

[RobG]

There's no law that will correct stupidity, which is what nearly anybody suffers from who thinks it's a good idea to head out the door with a rifle when there's a mob of elk on the flats south of Ennis, or other places like that.

The solution is more long range precision shooters.

Sorry Mr. Warden, my aim is so bad at 1000 yards I accidentally hit their tires.

 

[jryoung]

Is there opportunity to try and prevent these herds from taking refuge on private land in the first place. I keep hearing references to these herds showing up in August/September are there actions that can be taken at that time?

My assumption that many folks out running the roads in the summer is leading to this, coupled with delicious alfalfa under pivots. Would better sanctuary in the hills earlier in the season help this somewhat and hold off some of these early lower migrations?

 

[belly-deep]

Other than they don't have full peace office authority under MCA, there is no legal obstacle.

Certainly, out of jurisdiction arrests can be and are made on occasion when there is sufficient exigency to warrant the action.

Semantics, my friend.

If a warden observed a non-FG violation while in the field, he/she could arrest the person and the case would be prosecutable.

I believe that is what the initial debate started over.

 

[RobG]

Is there opportunity to try and prevent these herds from taking refuge on private land in the first place. I keep hearing references to these herds showing up in August/September are there actions that can be taken at that time?

My assumption that many folks out running the roads in the summer is leading to this, coupled with delicious alfalfa under pivots. Would better sanctuary in the hills earlier in the season help this somewhat and hold off some of these early lower migrations?

I don't think so. Mostly the elk just come down to private when the weather drives them out of the mountains.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Is there opportunity to try and prevent these herds from taking refuge on private land in the first place. I keep hearing references to these herds showing up in August/September are there actions that can be taken at that time?

My assumption that many folks out running the roads in the summer is leading to this, coupled with delicious alfalfa under pivots. Would better sanctuary in the hills earlier in the season help this somewhat and hold off some of these early lower migrations?

FWP can work with the landowner to haze (meets a lot of resistance from the public), institute damage hunts in Aug/Sept and work with the landowner to get fencing that would exclude animals from specific areas (mostly around haystacks).

I still contend that elk down low early in the season has as much to do with forage quality as it does anything else. We'd do well to burn some danged trees and encourage better land management on public land rather than let congress continue to defund our agencies.

 

[TheJason]

Semantics, my friend.

If a warden observed a non-FG violation while in the field, he/she could arrest the person and the case would be prosecutable.

I believe that is what the initial debate started over.

It's not semantics when you consider that if a Game Warden makes a habit out of making out-of-jurisdiction arrests he/she will likely 1) get fired and/or 2) possibly end up paying a lot of attorney fees on their own.

I never debated that the case would be prosecutable. Given the fact that Montana Wardens are underpaid as it is, I doubt you'll see any of them taking the financial risk to enforce laws that are outside of their legal authority as Game Wardens.

Without authority to make these arrests, there is no qualified immunity in the event that something goes horrilbly awry.

 

[Rimrock]

Out here in Springhill, the situation isn't quite as bad as south of Ennis, or say Townsend. Still, there's been a few hundred elk mostly hanging down on the flats, and getting subjected to "cluster" shoots with some regularity.
I've also mistakenly predicted they'd come to their senses, and head up into the mountains, a no-brainer.
Except we literally didn't cut a fresh track up in our old "haunts" in the Bridgers this fall. We've gotten elk... well, most recently two years ago up there, but...
Anymore, we like it better up in "Paradise". Except, let's see, is that east or west of here...?
Kinda up by Amnesia Lake. No clusters up there...

 

[BRI]

I believe forage quality is one of many factors. I also believe many factors have all come together at the same time creating the situation.

Here's an interesting article that many of you have read I'm sure but here it is again.

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2014/elkmovement.htm#.VH9qYWNGVrU

 

[The Hedgehog]

I hunted elk maybe 10 full days in MT this fall during rifle. When I was out on foot, hunting, two guys passed me (and my son) on the trail one day in the dark. Ohh that hurt, but it's public land. One other day, I saw 5 guys on horseback. One of them, a youth, shot a very small bull, while a group of larger bulls fed over the hill out of their sight.

So in about ten days, I saw other hunters twice while hunting, a total of 7 others. Yeah, let's go chase the herds on the flats. Sounds like fun.

 

[tjones]

And according to Toby and others the wolves have pushed all the elk down and onto private.

Couldn't be as soon as they leave low protected private they get lit up?

 

[BRI]

Kurt, you're in the 1% of hunters out there so your opinions shouldn't count..... Most of us mere humans should be lucky you talk to us....

 

[belly-deep]

Given the fact that Montana Wardens are underpaid as it is, I doubt you'll see any of them taking the financial risk to enforce laws that are outside of their legal authority as Game Wardens.

I don't see sheriff deputies etc holding back for that reason.

I think what it really boils down to is department policy. Wardens are stretched thin enough as is and they don't need to be out doing the sheriff's job.

I think citing for additional criminal violations while enforcing F&G statutes is completely reasonable though.

 

[belly-deep]

Kurt, you're in the 1% of hunters out there so your opinions shouldn't count..... Most of us mere humans should be lucky you talk to us....

Did you swallow?

 

[HSi-ESi]

The yearly success rates for MT Elk hunters is ~15%, correct? I'm not going to into reasons for why it's so low - but that means that there are 85% of the hunters susceptible to an 'easy elk' syndrome.

Folks see big herds on the flats and they get elk fever - of the worst kind. I think in part because of the 'got yer elk yet' question that you hear all of the time. Folks want to say 'Yep' to the question. Even though a hunt on flats isn't close to being on the same field as a 'normal' elk hunt.

Don't get me wrong, this stuff is horrible and gives all hunters a black eye.

We need to get a handle on this a$$-hattery though. It will be interesting to see what the recommendations are.

 

[BRI]

...

 

[TheJason]

I don't see sheriff deputies etc holding back for that reason.

I think what it really boils down to is department policy. Wardens are stretched thin enough as is and they don't need to be out doing the sheriff's job.

I think citing for additional criminal violations while enforcing F&G statutes is completely reasonable though.

Except the Sheriff's deputy is a fully commissioned peace officer in Montana, limited only by the county of jurisdiction.

There is a tremendous amount of liability in law enforcement, and operating outside of your scope of authority is dancing with the devil.

Wardens do not have the authority to cite for criminal violations while enforcing F&G statutes. The cannot issue a departmental citation in the course of a citizen's arrest.

 

[TheJason]

Sorry for the sidetrack on the thread.

The USFWS has tried to remedy issues like this on some of their refuges. Many of the popular waterfowl spots limit each hunter to 25 shells per day and enforce it pretty strictly, in an attempt to reduce the frequency of skybusting. Sounds like the National Elk Refuge rules are along the same lines.

You can't fix stupid, and until enough people are willing to step up to the plate, turn folks in and testify in court, this kind of stuff will continue to happen. Unfortunately, the lazy and complacement components of our society jump into the fray in their attempt to get a "piece of the pie" before the next guy does, instead of taking notes and reporting people with some useful information.

 

[belly-deep]

It went on your GF's chest!

Took ya while to think of a better comeback than the one you originally posted.