Thoughts on Wolves?

[BuzzH]

Excaliber,

Catch a clue.

Why do you think I'm "pro-wolf"???

Did you miss the part where I said I wanted them off the list? Followed by the part that I said I wanted management control given to the states?

My thoughts on wolf reintroduction have never changed since my first comments on the draft EIS in 1991. My stance is simple...reintroduce them, delist when population goals are met, control them by hunting seasons at the minimum level required to keep them off the ES list.

I guess if you think that stance is pro-wolf...so be it.

By the way, my stance is the same for griz...control populations at levels to keep them off the list by hunting seasons.

Also, your logic on there being plenty of wolves in Canada is lame. Thats the same logic used by Helen Chenoweth when she made the statement that "Idahos salmon and steelhead cant be endangered...I can buy canned salmon at the store".

I bet you believed that load of crap from Helen too didnt you?

Theres a reason why professional biologists and scientists should and are the decision makers on what animals or population segments should be listed.

Also, I never said the USFWS was right...the fact is they are the agency that controls Endangered Species. Until THEY think WY's plan is right, wolves will never be delisted. The feds wont be backing down, count on it.

Keep arguing with yourself, its entertaining.

 

[Excaliber]

It doesn't matter what site you post on you think your the last word and know it all on Wolf Management.

"Theres a reason why professional biologists and scientists should and are the decision makers on what animals or population segments should be listed."

Well said and that backs up my earlier point to a tee. All but one of your so called "professional biologists and scientists" agreed that Wyoming's plan was more than adequate as a management plan.

The USFWS is the reason Wolves are not poised for delisting at this time.
Quit blaming it on Wyoming.

You never did address my Question on the few Wolves that were here before the introduction.

 

[BuzzH]

Excaliber,

Think what you want, but the USFWS is following the Environmental Impact Statement that the tri-states agreed to. I suggest you read it. WY is holding up delisting as both ID and MT have come up with acceptable plans. I'll put the blame where it lies, WY has not come up with an acceptable plan as spelled out in the EIS THEY AGREED TO. The USFWS is following the EIS and the law...they're required to, and rightfully so.

The USFWS biologists are the know-it-alls and they KNOW that WY's plan is not acceptable.

Apparently you dont get that?

Read the EIS, there has to be agreement by the entire wolf recovery team that the State plans are acceptable. Kind of like a courtroom jury. Like I pointed out, doesnt matter if its one biologist or ten that dont agree with WY's plan...makes no difference. There has to be consensus.

As to the wolves that were already in the recovery area. There were ZERO wolves in yellowstone prior to their release. None were found in Idaho or Wyoming either. There were exhaustive efforts to find any level of population in the GYA, ID, and WY...nothing turned up.

Montana did, and still does, have wolves that had moved into the state from CANADA. Those populations were located in the N. Fork of the Flathead, S. Fork of the Flathead, and the Ninemile valley area. Those populations still exist. Not sure what your point is on that.

 

[cmiddleton]

1 out of 11 of your biologists with the usfws is holding things up.
we are fighting to be able to use all tools needed to keep the wolf in check i told you befor and i'll say it again listing them as big game will not do it.
wouldn't your energy be better spent convincing that one biologist then everyone in the state of wyoming.
the state has scientificly proven our plan will work and its being stopped by polatics and the roll over and give up crowd.
lets spend all this effort you are putting in to here and get that one biologist to roll over.
you think i'm out in left feild but i have already said the same things that governer dave thinks too. read friday the 26 star trib.
guess i'm not as far away from the feelings of wyoming people as you think even if i can't spell.
go back to montana if you like, there plan" isn't worth worm spit"
personally i don't care if they are delisted if we can't have the right tools to control them.stand our ground and don't back off go gov. dave.
this whole thing is being held up by one biologist not wyoming kick him off the board and get someone who is not a stick in the mud

 

[TheTone]

Middleton,

If Wyoming would get with the program and draw up a plan similar to Idaho's and Montana's we would have delisting correct? Then lets say at some point in the future, after controlled big game hunting has been established on wolves wouldn't it make sense that the results of those hunts could be evaluated to see if they are having the effect on populations the states want? For the sake of argument lets say that the wolf numbers are still higher than what the state wants, couldn't they then adjust the harvest (tag numbers, season lengths, etc.) to come closer to management goals? They would no longer be a listed endangered species so that sort of decision would be a state one. Buzz, Jose, and others have been trying to tell you that really right now we just need to get them off the list. Wyoming's plan didn't pass; instead of playing tough guy with there plan they need to just draw one up that will pass. As has been stated there are two approved plans out there, all they need to do is use some whiteout and change things to read Wyoming.

 

[cmiddleton]

its not our plan thats the problem its one biologest.
one man is holding things up.our plan is acceptable to everyone else.

 

[BuzzH]

Middleton,

You just dont get it.

Once control is given to the states and the wolves are delisted, the State of Wyoming will have numerous options to control wolves. Read TheTone's post, he's spot on.

I'd also guess that more than 1 of the 11 biologists are now on board with WY's plan being unacceptable. They've had time to think about and time to read MT and ID's plan...and plenty of time to show concern over WY's plan. I bet at least half of them now realize WY's plan is a joke.

Keep playing hardball all you want...I couldnt care less. The wolves are enjoying full federal protection and WY has NO control of wolf management in the state. Both MT and ID have been given some control...and they're controlling wolves in many areas. WY on the other hand, is busy fighting a losing battle.

 

[cmiddleton]

we want to be able to control them on privete land as a predator.
that way we don't have any delays when one is causing problems.
with a hunting season the only time you can control them is during the season.what about the rest of the year ranchers will be in trouble every time they shoot one for chasing livestock and will have to prove that it was has done damage you and i both know the usfws will not accept anything with out a long drawn out investigation. and will reject more claims than they accept.we don't want to mess with it. list them as a predator and we can keep control without that kind of expences.
wolves will remain in the park and forests its the ones on privete land that would be a predator. take it or just let them keep growing in numbers if that happens the blame is on the fws our plan will achive thair goals and they are the obstrctionists.
or they could use the fish and wildlife services wolfers to control the whole damb thing.
accept our plan it will not endanger the wolf and is the only plan that will keep them in check.
even when the fws delists they will still fight us on everything we try to change to the mt or id plan i will not sign any leagle document tell the terms are right once you sign it its to late to change it. usfws will fight anything that changes the document or the way its implaminted.

 

[TheTone]

Middleton,

I don't think Wyomings plan would have lead to the wolves going back on the list, but it was rejected. Fighting this battle will accomplish nothing except delaying delisting and control you want so badly. None of the plans (to my knowledge anyways) have in them what potential seasons will be once the states are given full control, other than they will be classified as big game like bears, mountain lions, etc. Isn't it feasible that the season lengths could be fairly long? We don't even know what tag numbers will be like and yet you already say it won't work. Also don't worry I don't think USFWS is waiting on your signature to get delisting accomplished.

 

[JoseCuervo]

with a hunting season the only time you can control them is during the season.what about the rest of the year ranchers will be in trouble every time they shoot one for chasing livestock and will have to prove that it was has done damage

cmmiddletoe,
What are the dates for Wolf Hunting Season?

 

[BigHornRam]

Excaliber,

Nice to see someone that is knowledgeable about the subject and shares my opinion. You also have Buzz figured out as well! Welcome to Hunt Talk.

 

[Excaliber]

BigHornRam,
Thanks for the Welcome.

"The wolves are enjoying full federal protection and WY has NO control of wolf management in the state. Both MT and ID have been given some control...and they're controlling wolves in many areas. WY on the other hand, is busy fighting a losing battle."

Just exactly what control do you say we have in Idaho? Idaho Wildlife Services are only collaring and shooting problem Wolves that are preying on Livestock, same as Montana and Wyoming.

Here's a quote from the USFWS Gray Wolf Website.

"On the 29th WY WS confirmed a 2nd calf killed by wolves near Big Piney, WY. This area has had repeated wolf depredations over the last several years. Land owner was issued a shoot-on-site permit and WS attempted to trap and collar a wolf in the area. Wolves did not return and traps were pulled on the 13th. WS will continue to attempt to remove wolves to prevent further depredations.

Idaho has no management authority at all, and definitelty no more than Wyoming at this time.
The Feds are still in control. If we had any control authority we would have already killed a bunch of Wolves in the Selway.

 

[cmiddleton]

there won't be any at this rate cool arrow jose what is pronounced cool arrow in spanish and la chinga de madra.
figure if your from south of the boarder you could sound them out i know i cant spell in amarican but can you sound out spanish.
i don't think the fws will let states control wolves withoutholding any plan that is signed over our head.
guess they should have planted them south of the boarder.
what ever is finally agreed to will be final and they will not let us deviate from it thats why its importent not to roll over.
wolves were eliminated for a reason and nobody still remembers why, well they will know in 20 yrs.

 

[BuzzH]

Excaliber,

Montana and Idaho have much more control over wolves than Wyoming. I also caution you that you shouldnt take much of what BHR says as the gospel. He, like you, doesnt have a clue what the "facts" are.

For your furthering education in the real facts of wolf management. From the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks homepage...I'll high-light the important parts.

Federal wildlife officials turned over most authority for the state’s recovered but still federally protected wolf population to Montana today allowing the state to carry out much of its approved wolf conservation and management plan.

"It’s been a long time coming, but the people of Montana worked hard over the past 10 years with the expectation that the wolf would one day be delisted and managed among all of the state’s wildlife," said Jeff Hagener, director of Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks "The agreement is confirmation that the people of Montana did their part to restore the wolf in this part of the country. It allows Montana to make wolf management decisions, which puts us in a better position to meet the challenges of living with the recovered population instead of waiting for delisting."

Under the agreement, Montana will conduct population monitoring, research, and public outreach, in addition to determining when non-lethal and lethal wolf-control actions are appropriate to reduce conflicts with livestock. Because wolves in northern Montana are currently classified as "endangered" and wolves in southern Montana are managed under a less restrictive "experimental, non-essential" classification, Montana still must follow federal guidelines related to lethal control.

"While the ultimate vision is delisting the wolf, this is an important interim step that recognizes the commitment and good will of the people of Montana," said Ed Bangs, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s coordinator for wolf recovery in the Northern Rocky Mountains. "We’re enthusiastic about this management transition because it is good for the wolf and for the people who live with them."

The agreement will allow Montana to apply its federally approved wolf conservation and management plan to:

* manage wolf numbers and distribution and maintain the wolf’s recovered status;

* help landowners reduce livestock-depredation risks;

* use wolf-management techniques to resolve wolf-related conflicts, based on a benchmark of 15 breeding pairs of wolves in Montana;

* help establish an independent financial compensation program for wolf-related losses;

* monitor deer and elk populations;

* ensure human safety.

Because the wolf is still protected under the Endangered Species Act, hunting is prohibited until the wolf is delisted.

The agreement is effective through June 2010, or until the wolf population in Montana is removed from the threatened and endangered species lists. Federal funding sources will cover work of FWP’s wolf management coordinator based in Helena, and wolf specialists based in Kalispell, Bozeman, Dillon, and Red Lodge. Under the agreement, FWP must prepare annual reports to document the recovered status of the Montana wolf population.

The biological requirements for wolf recovery in the northern Rocky Mountains of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming were met in December 2002. To take wolves off the endangered species list, however, Montana, Idaho and Wyoming must each have federally approved plans. USFWS approved Montana and Idaho management plans in 2003, but asked Wyoming to make adjustments to its plan and associated state laws. T he hoped for proposal to delist gray wolves in the northern Rocky Mountains is delayed indefinitely bec ause Wyoming has not made the requested adjustments.

Wolves from Canada began to naturally recolonize northwestern Montana in the mid 1980s. In the mid 1990s, to hasten the overall pace of wolf recovery in the northern Rockies, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service released 66 wolves into Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho. Since then, wolves have expanded in number and distribution throughout the federally designated Northern Rocky Mountain Recovery Area in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. Federal officials estimated in December 2004 that at least 153 wolves, in about 40 packs, and about 15 breeding pairs inhabit Montana.

 

[BuzzH]

Middleton,

I do know the reason wolves were eliminated...short-sighted a-holes like you.

Thankfully, most grown men no longer believe in fairy tales and little red riding hood.

Wolves are here to stay...get over it.

 

[mtmiller]

wolves were eliminated for a reason and nobody still remembers why, well they will know in 20 yrs.

c....why do you think they were/should be elimiated and do you have anything to defend your reasoning?

 

[JoseCuervo]

cmmmiddltoe,
YOu still haven't answered what the dates are of Wolf Hunting Season. You were all paranoid about being chased by wolves outside of hunting season, but you don't even know when Wolf Hunting Season is. Are you just paranoid of all the characters from storybooks when you were a little girl?

 

[Excaliber]

Wow Buzz you can copy and paste, good for you.
You don't know shit about Wolf Management and it shows every time you post.
Your just so happy to be on the winning side in this arguement.

Blah, Blah, Blah , When Montana can start killing Wolves whenever they want then you can say they have control over Wolves in their state.

So tell me Mr. know it all, when is Idaho going to kill the excess Wolves now that they have so much control?

The Feds have control. You seem to have book smarts but you don't get the simple facts as usual.

 

[BuzzH]

Excaliber,

Dont bitch at me about the feds still having some control...if WY had a plan like MT's and ID's we wouldnt be having this discussion and the states would have full control.

Also, if you know so much about wolf management...why hadnt you read the article I posted???

You flat didnt know what you were babbling about. You said, "Wyoming has the same amount of control as Idaho and Montana"...Oh, really??? Not according to the USFWS and the Fish and Game departments of ID and MT.

Is the MTFWP full of shit about their wolf management plan and the feds giving them more control than the state of Wyoming?

I suggest you contact the MTFWP director and tell him he's full of shit.

You're as clueless as middletoe.

Like a true uneducated red-neck hillbilly...you never let the facts get in the way of your ranting. Typical...oh so typical.

 

[mtmiller]

So tell me Mr. know it all, when is Idaho going to kill the excess Wolves now that they have so much control?

When and if the Feds OK their proposal. It was only sent recently, so it won't be tomorrow.