The Hedgehog
Well-known member
cmiddleton, Do you buy wildlife damage management stamps?
Thoughts on Wolves?
- Thread starter sreekers
- Start date
Tuffbucker
New member
I guess if I look like an idiot....its still one step higher than looking like a self-absorbed jack-ass!! Funny thing is, Ive only been involved in one "serious" discussion on this site(IN GOD WE TRUST), and if I recall, I think I had a pretty intelligent argument....one that, if I recall correctly....Buzz and Co. had little or no rebuttle for....
Now, Im sure you dont need me to post the definition of OPINION, since you are so "intelligent", but for those who dont have the Dicitionary memorized:
OPINION:A belief or conclusion held with confidence but NOT substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
So, I guess no one has the right to post their OPINION on a subject. We have to post scientific facts, cut and paste OTHER people's research from off of Google, or just keep quiet??? Again, get over yourself. Im still trying to figure out what it is about you, that makes you think you are so much better than others.....its quite the enigma!
Im not saying that I agree 100% with what Middleton or anyone else is posting....but I am willing to hear them out and respect their OPINONS enough to not have to try and belittle them every time they post. I have yet to post on this topic, simply because I do not yet feel informed enough to form an opinon. I like reading what others have to say, heck there's times where I enjoy reading some of the information you post. Your biggest problem is YOU are not open-minded enough to realize that people have opinons that differ from your own. Instead of accepting that we are all not like you, you try to throw out quick wips and insults, in what I'm guessing is your attempt to feel better about yourself!?!?!?
Now, Im sure you dont need me to post the definition of OPINION, since you are so "intelligent", but for those who dont have the Dicitionary memorized:
OPINION:A belief or conclusion held with confidence but NOT substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
So, I guess no one has the right to post their OPINION on a subject. We have to post scientific facts, cut and paste OTHER people's research from off of Google, or just keep quiet??? Again, get over yourself. Im still trying to figure out what it is about you, that makes you think you are so much better than others.....its quite the enigma!
Im not saying that I agree 100% with what Middleton or anyone else is posting....but I am willing to hear them out and respect their OPINONS enough to not have to try and belittle them every time they post. I have yet to post on this topic, simply because I do not yet feel informed enough to form an opinon. I like reading what others have to say, heck there's times where I enjoy reading some of the information you post. Your biggest problem is YOU are not open-minded enough to realize that people have opinons that differ from your own. Instead of accepting that we are all not like you, you try to throw out quick wips and insults, in what I'm guessing is your attempt to feel better about yourself!?!?!?
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tuff,
Did you read this thread from the start?
Opinions are fine, I have mine about the wolf issue. However, MY OPINION has no bearing on whats holding up delisting and why thats happening.
THE FACT is that WY has not written an acceptable plan. The fact is WY agreed to the EIS and the stipulations spelled out in great detail in said EIS. The fact is the USFWS are in control of the reintroduction/delisting and the EIS process. The fact is wolves will never be delisted until an acceptable plan is given to them by the state of WY.
Those are the facts. No opinion will change it.
Then you get middleton saying stupid untrue BS like, "Wyomings has written an acceptable plan". What???? Thats just not a fact, its an out-right lie and spreading disinformation. Wyoming has not written an acceptable plan...ask the USFWS if its acceptable. I dont care if, in his OPINION its acceptable, the EIS and the Feds dont agree. The EIS process is legal and binding and the agency in charge is the USFWS...FACT.
Another classic, "mule deer are going to get hit the worst by wolves"...What??? I'd like to see some proof of that. Great, in his opinion he may think so, but that isnt the FACTS, its not the reality, and I'm not going to listen to unfounded BS lies like that. I wont do it. I know better and I do know whats impacting mule deer...it aint wolves.
Call my a skeptic, but theres people that know a whole lot more about wolves and the EIS than some cowpoke redneck from Mills Wyoming who cant spell, type, or structure a sentence.
If the best we, as hunters, can come up with for opinions on important issues like wolf reintroduction, public lands grazing, habitat management, wildlife management, etc. is some ten-watt Wyoming rednecks "opinion" that defies facts, science, logic, and common sense...we're done as hunters and hunting wont last another generation.
Frankly, I dont want my sport being portrayed in the attitude of "If I cant kill it, its a worthless animal and I dont want my money spent to manage it". It makes me sick to think theres actually people that selfish and short-sighted out there that are allowed to purchase a hunting license. The last thing I want is them representing me as a hunter...dont want them and the sport doesnt need them. I'll be damned if I'll sit back and not tell it like it is to people that are that clueless. If it ruffles feathers...too bad, I dont have the luxury of 3 lifetimes to play patty-cake with uninformed, lieing idiots.
The people we're trying to persuade to accept hunting as a management tool (the 80% that dont have an opinion either way) are intelligent, articulate, and educated. People like middleton will not do us a bit of good with their redneck opinions...and thats another FACT.
Did you read this thread from the start?
Opinions are fine, I have mine about the wolf issue. However, MY OPINION has no bearing on whats holding up delisting and why thats happening.
THE FACT is that WY has not written an acceptable plan. The fact is WY agreed to the EIS and the stipulations spelled out in great detail in said EIS. The fact is the USFWS are in control of the reintroduction/delisting and the EIS process. The fact is wolves will never be delisted until an acceptable plan is given to them by the state of WY.
Those are the facts. No opinion will change it.
Then you get middleton saying stupid untrue BS like, "Wyomings has written an acceptable plan". What???? Thats just not a fact, its an out-right lie and spreading disinformation. Wyoming has not written an acceptable plan...ask the USFWS if its acceptable. I dont care if, in his OPINION its acceptable, the EIS and the Feds dont agree. The EIS process is legal and binding and the agency in charge is the USFWS...FACT.
Another classic, "mule deer are going to get hit the worst by wolves"...What??? I'd like to see some proof of that. Great, in his opinion he may think so, but that isnt the FACTS, its not the reality, and I'm not going to listen to unfounded BS lies like that. I wont do it. I know better and I do know whats impacting mule deer...it aint wolves.
Call my a skeptic, but theres people that know a whole lot more about wolves and the EIS than some cowpoke redneck from Mills Wyoming who cant spell, type, or structure a sentence.
If the best we, as hunters, can come up with for opinions on important issues like wolf reintroduction, public lands grazing, habitat management, wildlife management, etc. is some ten-watt Wyoming rednecks "opinion" that defies facts, science, logic, and common sense...we're done as hunters and hunting wont last another generation.
Frankly, I dont want my sport being portrayed in the attitude of "If I cant kill it, its a worthless animal and I dont want my money spent to manage it". It makes me sick to think theres actually people that selfish and short-sighted out there that are allowed to purchase a hunting license. The last thing I want is them representing me as a hunter...dont want them and the sport doesnt need them. I'll be damned if I'll sit back and not tell it like it is to people that are that clueless. If it ruffles feathers...too bad, I dont have the luxury of 3 lifetimes to play patty-cake with uninformed, lieing idiots.
The people we're trying to persuade to accept hunting as a management tool (the 80% that dont have an opinion either way) are intelligent, articulate, and educated. People like middleton will not do us a bit of good with their redneck opinions...and thats another FACT.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Stab,
Try a comprehension course...
Try a comprehension course...
Tuffbucker
New member
Buzz,
I have read it through from the very beginning. I am actually trying to become more informed on the whole "wolf issue". Although there "aren't any wolves in Utah" (according to the UDWR), I know that the delisting of the wolf will have a direct impact on the State where I live and hunt. There is some of the information presented that I was aware of, and some stuff that it new to me. I dont live in the middle of "Wolf Country", so I appreciate hearing the opinions of those who live where the problem has a more direct impact on them and their hunting.
I still stand my ground, however, on allowing EVERYONE to post their OPINIONS without having to worry about being belittled by some of the "elitists" on this site. I appreciate the "facts and knowledge" that you and some of the others post. What I cannot appreciate is you self-absorbed, condecending responses to those who are simply trying to voice the way they feel about a topic that they are very passionate about.
I agree, there are some that need more educating on this topic, but there are better ways to educate people than making slams on their spelling, opinions, education, points of view, etc. In more simple terms....you dont always have to be such an ass to people! You'd be suprised how much more respect people would have for you and your OPINIONS if you didnt act like such a self-centered braggard all the time!
You say that you dont want to be represented as a hunter, by people like Middleton....well, have you thought that maybe he doesn't want to be represented as a hunter by people like you!?!??!
I have read it through from the very beginning. I am actually trying to become more informed on the whole "wolf issue". Although there "aren't any wolves in Utah" (according to the UDWR), I know that the delisting of the wolf will have a direct impact on the State where I live and hunt. There is some of the information presented that I was aware of, and some stuff that it new to me. I dont live in the middle of "Wolf Country", so I appreciate hearing the opinions of those who live where the problem has a more direct impact on them and their hunting.
I still stand my ground, however, on allowing EVERYONE to post their OPINIONS without having to worry about being belittled by some of the "elitists" on this site. I appreciate the "facts and knowledge" that you and some of the others post. What I cannot appreciate is you self-absorbed, condecending responses to those who are simply trying to voice the way they feel about a topic that they are very passionate about.
I agree, there are some that need more educating on this topic, but there are better ways to educate people than making slams on their spelling, opinions, education, points of view, etc. In more simple terms....you dont always have to be such an ass to people! You'd be suprised how much more respect people would have for you and your OPINIONS if you didnt act like such a self-centered braggard all the time!
You say that you dont want to be represented as a hunter, by people like Middleton....well, have you thought that maybe he doesn't want to be represented as a hunter by people like you!?!??!
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tuff,
Apparently you just dont get it. Like I said, opinions are fine, but the facts are what they are. If people refuse to accept the facts and post lies, distortions, and unfounded claims...I'm calling them on it.
Yep, I've given thought to people like Middleton not wanting me representing them. And the good thing is...I refuse to represent people like him.
I wont ever waste my time trying to defend "hunters" with his crappy attitude toward wildlife and wildlife management, thats a fact.
I'm not joking one bit...before I defend any nitwit with his attitude, I'll quite hunting and join PETA.
However, I know theres still enough true sportsmen out there, as well as wildife, that the fight is still worth fighting. But if all hunters had middletons "opinions" and attitude toward endangered species, wildlife, and wildlife management...wouldnt be worth it and I'd fight against them way before I'd ever fight beside them.
He's just lucky that intelligent, articulate, and educated people are in the most persuasive positions to defend hunting, even his right to hunt and purchase a hunting license. Frankly, I'd rather not defend the right for people like him. When I write letters, attend meetings, speak on behalf of wildlife and wildlife habitat, serve on committees, etc. rest assured I'm not doing so on behalf of people with the "if I caint kill dem' der critters, I don' wan my muney fundin' em ether" attitude.
So really, he can spend his time, effort, and money defending his own crappy out-look on wildlife. Thankfully, he wont be taken seriously.
He'd be smart to just say "thanks", make his once a year contribution to wildlife via buying a resident license to hunt a deer and elk, and let it go at that. He does nothing but damage by doing anything more.
Apparently you just dont get it. Like I said, opinions are fine, but the facts are what they are. If people refuse to accept the facts and post lies, distortions, and unfounded claims...I'm calling them on it.
Yep, I've given thought to people like Middleton not wanting me representing them. And the good thing is...I refuse to represent people like him.
I wont ever waste my time trying to defend "hunters" with his crappy attitude toward wildlife and wildlife management, thats a fact.
I'm not joking one bit...before I defend any nitwit with his attitude, I'll quite hunting and join PETA.
However, I know theres still enough true sportsmen out there, as well as wildife, that the fight is still worth fighting. But if all hunters had middletons "opinions" and attitude toward endangered species, wildlife, and wildlife management...wouldnt be worth it and I'd fight against them way before I'd ever fight beside them.
He's just lucky that intelligent, articulate, and educated people are in the most persuasive positions to defend hunting, even his right to hunt and purchase a hunting license. Frankly, I'd rather not defend the right for people like him. When I write letters, attend meetings, speak on behalf of wildlife and wildlife habitat, serve on committees, etc. rest assured I'm not doing so on behalf of people with the "if I caint kill dem' der critters, I don' wan my muney fundin' em ether" attitude.
So really, he can spend his time, effort, and money defending his own crappy out-look on wildlife. Thankfully, he wont be taken seriously.
He'd be smart to just say "thanks", make his once a year contribution to wildlife via buying a resident license to hunt a deer and elk, and let it go at that. He does nothing but damage by doing anything more.
BuzzH said:
Sorry, but that reminded me of a good movie line.
Jack Nicholson (Col. Jessup): Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
BuzzH
Well-known member
Stab,
Answer an honest question...do you really think that Greenhorn or I would come to the ridiculous conclusion that a predator that eats big-game would have NO impact on them?
For Petes sake...thats about the dumbest question I've ever heard.
Yep, I can honestly say that wolves have no impact on big-game, even though they are meat-eating predators that prey on big-game. Hunters also have no impact on big-game either, even though they kill thousands of big-game animals a year. Taking away winter range, that doesnt impact big-game at all, they have evolved to now digest asphalt, cadillac escalades, and yuppie starter homes.
It wasnt a fair question...it was a dumb one.
Miller, the original was a bit "harsh" so I toned it down...dont want to hurt any feelers...even though middleton shouldnt be allowed near a keyboard.
Answer an honest question...do you really think that Greenhorn or I would come to the ridiculous conclusion that a predator that eats big-game would have NO impact on them?
For Petes sake...thats about the dumbest question I've ever heard.
Yep, I can honestly say that wolves have no impact on big-game, even though they are meat-eating predators that prey on big-game. Hunters also have no impact on big-game either, even though they kill thousands of big-game animals a year. Taking away winter range, that doesnt impact big-game at all, they have evolved to now digest asphalt, cadillac escalades, and yuppie starter homes.
It wasnt a fair question...it was a dumb one.
Miller, the original was a bit "harsh" so I toned it down...dont want to hurt any feelers...even though middleton shouldnt be allowed near a keyboard.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
Stab, Can you read? Of all the folks here that want wolves and grizzlies delisted FAST, so we can knock some sense into a few of them.. I'd be the first in line. And just so you know, I'm chapped at how snafu this whole reintro process of wolves has went. Wolves, along with other predators have knocked the shit out of some wildlife. But I have to admit, I honestly don't think they should be exterminated, and I enjoy seeing a few of them around, even though I do joke about shooting them in the ass.
That doesn't change the fact that there's a few dumb-asses out there that make a farce of hunters. A lot of time, the dumbasses are the ones people remember. That's the only reason I commented in this thread.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Stab,
You should be on mythbusters...you'd smash this myth: "Theres no such thing as a dumb question"...
You should be on mythbusters...you'd smash this myth: "Theres no such thing as a dumb question"...
Tuffbucker
New member
mtmiller said:
That right there ranks near the top of my list of All-Time Favorite Movie Quotes!!
Ithaca 37
New member
Tuff, "I think I had a pretty intelligent argument....one that, if I recall correctly....Buzz and Co. had little or no rebuttle for...."
Assuming it really was an intelligent argument, there might not have been a need for any rebuttal. The rebuttals get saved for the idiotic opinions some people post and think they deserve respect.
Usually, if a poster deals in facts and logical thought processes they don't get jumped on.
Assuming it really was an intelligent argument, there might not have been a need for any rebuttal. The rebuttals get saved for the idiotic opinions some people post and think they deserve respect.
Usually, if a poster deals in facts and logical thought processes they don't get jumped on.
MarvB
Well-known member
So just for my own edification here (by definition-sophistication or uplifting enlightenment) and not that I have a dog (or wolf) in this fight to shoot in the ass, but if one post their personal opinion on a subject and their personal opinion may be contrary to a known or otherwise accepted fact- it therefore becomes a "lie"??
Not saying I agree (in full anyway) with either Buzz or Cmid but isn't that the whole premise behind a healthy debate- two sides attempting to sway one another? Don't really see how it makes EITHER one a "liar"....looking stupid is still a right if I'm not mistaken...
Not saying I agree (in full anyway) with either Buzz or Cmid but isn't that the whole premise behind a healthy debate- two sides attempting to sway one another? Don't really see how it makes EITHER one a "liar"....looking stupid is still a right if I'm not mistaken...
noharleyyet
Well-known member
....looking stupid is not only a 'right'...to some of our more arrogant postulators it is an obsession.
And yes, I'm speaking inclusively.
And yes, I'm speaking inclusively.Cathunt MT
New member
Tell me how you no what a fact is when you get your info from sources that are one sided.
PS dont ask Buzz to get info backing up what he said. I asked him two times in this thread but he still can not do it. So would he be telling a "lie".....??????
PS dont ask Buzz to get info backing up what he said. I asked him two times in this thread but he still can not do it. So would he be telling a "lie".....??????
Who needs a Beer?
Buzz, I agree with you on what you have stated in this thread. I think you are spot on.
But your still an asshole, and I wouldn't want you and your arrogant my way or no way attitude representing the hunting community, any more than cmids redneck "if I caint kill dem' der critters, I don' wan my muney fundin' em ether" approach,
Neither is going to work.
Buzz, I agree with you on what you have stated in this thread. I think you are spot on.
But your still an asshole, and I wouldn't want you and your arrogant my way or no way attitude representing the hunting community, any more than cmids redneck "if I caint kill dem' der critters, I don' wan my muney fundin' em ether" approach,
Neither is going to work.
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