The housing shortage and public lands

[OntarioHunter]

Says the sole authority on public lands in the mountain west...

Here's some background on this loudmouth gleaned from years of listening to him on another forum. His experience hunting public land in the West was one elk hunting trip to Colorado with his Oakie/Texas buddies. Couldn't shoot anything from the road so they packed it in and went home. He is by his own admission grossly overweight and limited to ATV "hunting". The only deer he's supposedly shot and shown a photo in the last dozen years was a little Texas type whitetail buck which he bragged was shot over a feeder. Bubba/Otto rails against the govt but he's a career municipal turd herder drawing a retirement cheque from a plan sufficient to suspend Social Security. He's never posted a picture of himself. Not one. What this guy knows about hunting public land ... or hunting in general ... would fit in a teaspoon. I always get a laugh reading his constant barking about how the toxic shot ban was a liberal ploy to ruin hunting. That's his excuse for ceasing to hunt waterfowl. Truth is it's too much work. Of course he knows steel shot doesn't kill ... even though by his own admission he's never used it. Let me do the math for you: If music = BS then Otto/Bubba = brass band.

All this guy will contribute to this forum is acrimony. It's his schtick. Because he's got nothing else.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Explain to me the issue with LA and the policy that caused that issue and then how that policy is inherently liberal or conservative.

Contrast that policy with the rapid expansion of 1920s Chicago, that cities violence, pollution… rivers on fire and how those issues are a product of liberal policies.

Then let’s do that for the steel towns of London at the onset of the industrial revolution.

Or more simply cite any city in history of man kind that was “conservative” by today’s definition, guns, abortion, low taxes, that experienced rapid growth and was a beautiful pollution free, crime free place to live.

In my mind CA is the ultimate capitalist success story. A total explosion of wealth and development in a very short time. It’s the largest GDP state and would be the 5th largest GDP in the world if it were a country. That happened in ~ 170 years, it went from a few small mining towns to an economy that rivals the UK and Germany.

I see CA has a cautionary tale about capitalism. It’s a tale about building cities around cars not public transit, it’s a story about water, corruption, etc.

I think Nancy Pelosi is a tool bag, but I’m not giving her credit for building CA.

Also the ills you and I see, John Muir saw as well, it’s been a bit.

Rock trivia; Led Zep was originally Greta Van Sausage Pants

Liberal shitholes abound....deep breaths

*edit to add; hoard, gouge, rinse, repeat.

Looking at the problems from a “liberal vs conservative” perspective is going to give skewed results.

There really aren’t any such things as liberals or conservatives. There are people and they make problems because they are self-interested, short sighted, and unconcerned about the cumulative effects of their choices.

Liberalism and Conservation are simply philosophical and economic constructs that people use to codify their concepts of the problems and the solutions. Both “isms” have significant problems when applied by people without principle and moral character that understand the Golden Rule.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Um, Bakken was most certainly not an influx of liberals and it was a complete shitshow.

Every oil boom has a serious increase in crime. Specifically: Domestic violence, drugs, sex trafficking & poaching. The Pinedale boom, the CBM boomn in NE WY/SE MT, etc, etc, etc.

The Missing & Murdered Indigenous Women issue is exacerbated by the oil industry's demand for sex workers as well.

Even the white collars get in on that action.

One could argue that the moving of manufacturing to China, a solid bi-partsian screwing of Americans, is what has put crime in major metro areas like Detroit & Chicago on a roller coaster ride to violence, and let's not forget how enamored the CIA was of crack cocaine back in the day as we had the bright idea to run drugs in order to fund black ops in foriegn nations.

 

[OntarioHunter]

This is part of the phenomenon of this madness that has me shaking my head. My wife manages about 25 medical professionals, all making 30+ an hour, a few of which are living in campers because rentals are not available and who the hell can come up with $500,000 for a house in Helena or it’s surroundings.

We need more houses. As much as I despise it, piles of modest houses with tiny yards right next to one another, like the Mountain Meadows development in the hills between Helena and Montana City, seem to be the only model that offers reasonable chance at home ownership for folks who make normal money.

My wife and I are in the process of purchasing a rental in a community on the edge of the madness that obviously will be overtaken by it if this keeps up. I feel like an asshole in some ways, like we are taking away someone else’s opportunity to own a home, but ya gotta take care of your own and plan for the future I guess.

We can talk about previous generations, and how change has always existed in the west, but I believe there are many reasons to believe that this is unprecedented and will not stop. I believe the housing issues will improve, but the public land ones will not. It’s sort of turning me into a radical in someways. I love chunks of earth like I love people. One of the chief reasons we love people has to do with their character. We are seeing the character of places dissolve and disappear. We are witnessing a mass die off.

A book I’ve read twice in the last month is K Ross Toole’s, “ The Rape of the Great Plains.” He was sort of sounding the alarm on some thing that never came to fruition in the magnitude he thought it would, but his sentiment carries over into this crisis. And I believe it is a crisis, whether or not the frogs have realized that the pot is boiling yet.

View attachment 187789

And Toole died a long time ago so his observation is dated ... but so accurate. A great guy born into a political family who eschewed it for teaching ... for which he was a master. I remember the last time I visited with him. He was dying of cancer but still coming to the office at the university. And he still had that dynamism and sparkling wit. Toole is perhaps the most engaging person I have ever known. He certainly had the foresight to see where Montana was heading way back in the seventies. But it didn't take a sack of tea leaves to predict it. Just open eyes and an open mind. He gave that to me.

 

[LWC55]

Explain to me the issue with LA and the policy that caused that issue and then how that policy is inherently liberal or conservative.

Contrast that policy with the rapid expansion of 1920s Chicago, that cities violence, pollution… rivers on fire and how those issues are a product of liberal policies.

Then let’s do that for the steel towns of London at the onset of the industrial revolution.

Or more simply cite any city in history of man kind that was “conservative” by today’s definition, guns, abortion, low taxes, that experienced rapid growth and was a beautiful pollution free, crime free place to live.

In my mind CA is the ultimate capitalist success story. A total explosion of wealth and development in a very short time. It’s the largest GDP state and would be the 5th largest GDP in the world if it were a country. That happened in ~ 170 years, it went from a few small mining towns to an economy that rivals the UK and Germany.

I see CA has a cautionary tale about capitalism. It’s a tale about building cities around cars not public transit, it’s a story about water, corruption, etc.

I think Nancy Pelosi is a tool bag, but I’m not giving her credit for building CA.

Also the ills you and I see, John Muir saw as well, it’s been a bit.

Are you saying there isn't a direct correlation between folks moving en masse from more liberal areas and the rise in crime and homelessness in cities like Austin and Denver?

The rapid growth in the cities you mention was mainly people with a strong work ethic moving from lower paying agricultural work to where the higher paying manufacturing jobs were at the time. Now it is people and businesses fleeing high taxes and overreaching govt policies. Much different animal in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Looking at the problems from a “liberal vs conservative” perspective is going to give skewed results.

There really aren’t any such things as liberals or conservatives. There are people and they make problems because they are self-interested, short sighted, and unconcerned about the cumulative effects of their choices.

Liberalism and Conservation are simply philosophical and economic constructs that people use to codify their concepts of the problems and the solutions. Both “isms” have significant problems when applied by people without principle and moral character that understand the Golden Rule.

As I have come to expect from you, thoughtful, eloquent, accurate.

 

[Ben Lamb]

As I have come to expect from you, thoughtful, eloquent, accurate.

He's my pick for the next MT Governor.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Are you saying there isn't a direct correlation between folks moving en masse from more liberal areas and the rise in crime and homelessness in cities like Austin and Denver?

The rapid growth in the cities you mention was mainly people with a strong work ethic moving from lower paying agricultural work to where the higher paying manufacturing jobs were at the time. Now it is people fleeing high taxes and overreaching govt policies. Much different animal in my opinion.

What is liberal?

 

[JLS]

What is liberal?

The bogey man for a portion of our society.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Are you saying there isn't a direct correlation between folks moving en masse from more liberal areas and the rise in crime and homelessness in cities like Austin and Denver?

The rapid growth in the cities you mention was mainly people with a strong work ethic moving from lower paying agricultural work to where the higher paying manufacturing jobs were at the time. Now it is people fleeing high taxes and overreaching govt policies. Much different animal in my opinion.

Mr. Martin’s response was the exact response I was seeking to illicit.

 

[JLS]

Are you saying there isn't a direct correlation between folks moving en masse from more liberal areas and the rise in crime and homelessness in cities like Austin and Denver?

The correlation is people, not their political affiliation or ideology.

 

[tjones]

Here's some background on this loudmouth gleaned from years of listening to him on another forum. His experience hunting public land in the West was one elk hunting trip to Colorado with his Oakie/Texas buddies. Couldn't shoot anything from the road so they packed it in and went home. He is by his own admission grossly overweight and limited to ATV "hunting". The only deer he's supposedly shot and shown a photo in the last dozen years was a little Texas type whitetail buck which he bragged was shot over a feeder. Bubba/Otto rails against the govt but he's a career municipal turd herder drawing a retirement cheque from a plan sufficient to suspend Social Security. He's never posted a picture of himself. Not one. What this guy knows about hunting public land ... or hunting in general ... would fit in a teaspoon. I always get a laugh reading his constant barking about how the toxic shot ban was a liberal ploy to ruin hunting. That's his excuse for ceasing to hunt waterfowl. Truth is it's too much work. Of course he knows steel shot doesn't kill ... even though by his own admission he's never used it. Let me do the math for you: If music = BS then Otto/Bubba = brass band.

All this guy will contribute to this forum is acrimony. It's his schtick. Because he's got nothing else.

Does anyone else think Ontario is Bizarro Otto?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Are you saying there isn't a direct correlation between folks moving en masse from more liberal areas and the rise in crime and homelessness in cities like Austin and Denver?

The rapid growth in the cities you mention was mainly people with a strong work ethic moving from lower paying agricultural work to where the higher paying manufacturing jobs were at the time. Now it is people and businesses fleeing high taxes and overreaching govt policies. Much different animal in my opinion.

In any instance where you have the movement of people into a concentrated area, you will see an increase in crime. That's simply a function of humanity crowding together. New York City leading up to the Civil War was a hot mess of gang activity based on right wing intolerance of immigrants & black folk (draft riots, etc) followed by the immigration of organized crime from the old world in the 1880's & 90's with the Black Hand which turned into Cosa Nostra. Chicago during prohibition was a direct result of outlawing liquor, a cause that was championed by religious conservatives who over-reacted to a serious public health issue. Denver had serious gang issues before it exploded in the 2000's. Austin has been a drug town since UT was founded. In fact, the first mass shooting happened at UT.

The whiskey rebellion was an attempt to avoid taxation of liquor. George Washington shut that down. THe opium trade in the west was tied to railroads & mining, as was the massive explosion of prostitution and murder.

It's not necessarily political. It's the American psyche to thrive on conflict

 

[Gerald Martin]

Gospel of Luke 10:25-35 would make for good reading for policy makers. Was he liberal or conservative?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

In any instance where you have the movement of people into a concentrated area, you will see an increase in crime. That's simply a function of humanity crowding together. New York City leading up to the Civil War was a hot mess of gang activity based on right wing intolerance of immigrants & black folk (draft riots, etc) followed by the immigration of organized crime from the old world in the 1880's & 90's with the Black Hand which turned into Cosa Nostra. Chicago during prohibition was a direct result of outlawing liquor, a cause that was championed by religious conservatives who over-reacted to a serious public health issue. Denver had serious gang issues before it exploded in the 2000's. Austin has been a drug town since UT was founded. In fact, the first mass shooting happened at UT.

The whiskey rebellion was an attempt to avoid taxation of liquor. George Washington shut that down. THe opium trade in the west was tied to railroads & mining, as was the massive explosion of prostitution and murder.

It's not necessarily political. It's the American psyche to thrive on conflict

Wrong, in fact early Native Americans left Asia and traveled across the beringia land bridge because of identity politics and high capacity magazine regulations.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Wrong, in fact early Native Americans left Asia and traveled across the beringia land bridge because of identify politics and high capacity magazine regulations.

Fact.

Also a fact: All Plains Tribes fought each other over starbucks cups & what to call Christmas. Also whether or not meat was murder.

 

[Gerald Martin]

He's my pick for the next MT Governor.

Are we really that desperate?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Are we really that desperate?

yes. Get on it.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Fact.

Also a fact: All Plains Tribes fought each other of starbucks cups & what to call Christmas. Also whether or not meat was murder.

I thought the Bacon Pants War was over who got to wear the latest newfangled fashion.

 

[LWC55]

The correlation is people, not their political affiliation or ideology.

I agree it is people. But people make policies that encourage folks to be dependent on government handouts, disincentivize working for a living, crazy high taxes, discourage prosecuting of criminals, encouraging illegal entry, defunding the police, etc....