The housing shortage and public lands

[TheNorthStar]

Camper Van Bacon Pants is a wicked good band name though.

Too close to Camper Van Beethoven, an actual band name.

 

[tjones]

Can we get back on cheese because I think Otto’s cheese has slipped off his cracker.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Reading all the comments about people’s experiences in small towns across a number of states, I’m struck by the similarities between this current influx of humanity and the oil boom in the Bakken a few years ago. Small local businesses couldn’t hire enough workers to stay open. Waste treatment systems were overrun. Highway and road infrastructure was overrun. Housing costs soared. Costs of everything soared. Bare shelves at all the stores because things were snatched up as soon as they came off the truck. Schools were overcrowded to the point they couldn’t fit all the kids into classrooms. People were squatting on every available piece of ground because housing was in short supply and expensive. Every camping area looked like a trailer park complete with stray pets and trash, and there was nowhere for recreational campers to even stay. It was a nightmare. But this is on a whole other scale from that even. I do worry about the sprawl and habitat impacts. The almighty dollar usually trumps everything else.

Great comparison.

I was thinking of New York 200 years ago, Chicago, London… ancient Rome.

Rapid growth is playing out the way it always plays out.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Can we get back on cheese because I think Otto’s cheese has slipped off his cracker.

His logic has more holes than a wheel of Swiss…

sorry. Couldn’t help myself.

 

[JLS]

Great comparison.

I was thinking of New York 200 years ago, Chicago, London… ancient Rome.

Rapid growth is playing out the way it always plays out.

I’ve lived my whole life in the western US, and I’ve seen this play out so many times. Same story, different town, but the impacts now seem even more pronounced.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Just landed in Philadelphia. Spent the last 45 minutes of the flight flying over a patchwork of lights from horizon to horizon.
I miss Montana.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I forgot there are Texas Dall Sheep on some of those ranches. I take back all my sarcasm towards things Texan.
Ya’ll got it figured out.
No need to come to MT.

 

[Pucky Freak]

My assessment of the average mentality of service workers at a resort like Big Sky is most of them are there for the perks of recreation associated with the resort as much as for the financial compensation.

Mmm…I spent many summers doing this and fit this description pretty well. Maybe 1 of 10 coworkers were a similar stripe. A breakdown of the rest:
5% local teens wanting to earn some cash (carpool 20-45 mile commute)
15% locals working a seasonal job as their primary annual income.
5% Christian ministry and evangelism
10% F Visa students for an English language immersion experience.
30% H Visa workers netting about 2/5 of their wage for remittance.
25% teacher’s aides, school bus drivers, retirees, and others padding an already small or limited income.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Mmm…I spent many summers doing this and fit this description pretty well. Maybe 1 of 10 coworkers were a similar stripe. A breakdown of the rest:
5% local teens wanting to earn some cash (carpool 20-45 mile commute)
15% locals working a seasonal job as their primary annual income.
5% Christian ministry and evangelism
10% F Visa students for an English language immersion experience.
30% H Visa workers netting about 2/5 of their wage for remittance.
25% teacher’s aides, school bus drivers, retirees, and others padding an already small or limited income.

 

[Shangobango]

Mill price on 2x4-8’ studs is off 50% in less than a month.
This is at the wholesale level.
Lumber Composite off 50% in 6 weeks and futures off almost 50% in 8 weeks.
A very simplistic look at the market but ya tanking.

I missed the up and the down on Random Length Lumber.

What a knot head…

 

[Gerald Martin]

Great comparison.

I was thinking of New York 200 years ago, Chicago, London… ancient Rome.

Rapid growth is playing out the way it always plays out.

Dude, I know you have been around and seen a lot but time travel is next level!!

 

[mtmuley]

Reading all the comments about people’s experiences in small towns across a number of states, I’m struck by the similarities between this current influx of humanity and the oil boom in the Bakken a few years ago. Small local businesses couldn’t hire enough workers to stay open. Waste treatment systems were overrun. Highway and road infrastructure was overrun. Housing costs soared. Costs of everything soared. Bare shelves at all the stores because things were snatched up as soon as they came off the truck. Schools were overcrowded to the point they couldn’t fit all the kids into classrooms. People were squatting on every available piece of ground because housing was in short supply and expensive. Every camping area looked like a trailer park complete with stray pets and trash, and there was nowhere for recreational campers to even stay. It was a nightmare. But this is on a whole other scale from that even. I do worry about the sprawl and habitat impacts. The almighty dollar usually trumps everything else.

I stayed home in Montana during the oil boom. Still doing ok. This recent boom of building benefits me. When it's gone, I'm still going to be here. mtmuley

 

[SFC B]

This just doesn't mean anything or have any intellectual value.

So the shift in politics in those areas (relating DIRECTLY to influx of folks for the described locations) correlating directly to soaring crime, pollution, cost of living and housing are totally unrelated.....riiiiiiiiight. SMFH

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So the shift in politics in those areas (relating DIRECTLY to influx of folks for the described locations) correlating directly to soaring crime, pollution, cost of living and housing are totally unrelated.....riiiiiiiiight. SMFH

Explain to me the issue with LA and the policy that caused that issue and then how that policy is inherently liberal or conservative.

Contrast that policy with the rapid expansion of 1920s Chicago, that cities violence, pollution… rivers on fire and how those issues are a product of liberal policies.

Then let’s do that for the steel towns of London at the onset of the industrial revolution.

Or more simply cite any city in history of man kind that was “conservative” by today’s definition, guns, abortion, low taxes, that experienced rapid growth and was a beautiful pollution free, crime free place to live.

In my mind CA is the ultimate capitalist success story. A total explosion of wealth and development in a very short time. It’s the largest GDP state and would be the 5th largest GDP in the world if it were a country. That happened in ~ 170 years, it went from a few small mining towns to an economy that rivals the UK and Germany.

I see CA has a cautionary tale about capitalism. It’s a tale about building cities around cars not public transit, it’s a story about water, corruption, etc.

I think Nancy Pelosi is a tool bag, but I’m not giving her credit for building CA.

Also the ills you and I see, John Muir saw as well, it’s been a bit.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Dude, I know you have been around and seen a lot but time travel is next level!!

Time travel is both cheap and the benefits of it were wildly publicized to my generation.

 

[Hunting Wife]

So the shift in politics in those areas (relating DIRECTLY to influx of folks for the described locations) correlating directly to soaring crime, pollution, cost of living and housing are totally unrelated.....riiiiiiiiight. SMFH

Um, Bakken was most certainly not an influx of liberals and it was a complete shitshow.

 

[Buffs35]

Can I get a link to one of these 0% loans, Otto? Thanks!

you just have to own a bank.

 

[noharleyyet]

Rock trivia; Led Zep was originally Greta Van Sausage Pants

Liberal shitholes abound....deep breaths

*edit to add; hoard, gouge, rinse, repeat.

 

[Nameless Range]

The problem continues, many local articles over the last few months; guys and gals with legit good career-type hospital, construction, and skilled labor jobs living in their cars. Shower at the rec center. Starting salary at one of the gas stations in town is $19-$21/hr, no experience required. And they can't get anyone. The cheapest 3 bedroom house in the county currently available for rent is $6,500/mo for a 3/2/1200' condo. The last place we lived is renting for $4,500...950 sq ft 3/2 with no yard or garage.

It's always been crazy, who knew there was a next level. The only way to be here is be a billionaire, have a long time family home, workforce housing, or have someone rent to you out of the goodness of their heart.

Edited to add: I'm not complaining, just observations. 95% of my problems are of the first world category. I have a good education and could move, not the case for everyone.

This is part of the phenomenon of this madness that has me shaking my head. My wife manages about 25 medical professionals, all making 30+ an hour, a few of which are living in campers because rentals are not available and who the hell can come up with $500,000 for a house in Helena or it’s surroundings.

We need more houses. As much as I despise it, piles of modest houses with tiny yards right next to one another, like the Mountain Meadows development in the hills between Helena and Montana City, seem to be the only model that offers reasonable chance at home ownership for folks who make normal money.

My wife and I are in the process of purchasing a rental in a community on the edge of the madness that obviously will be overtaken by it if this keeps up. I feel like an asshole in some ways, like we are taking away someone else’s opportunity to own a home, but ya gotta take care of your own and plan for the future I guess.

We can talk about previous generations, and how change has always existed in the west, but I believe there are many reasons to believe that this is unprecedented and will not stop. I believe the housing issues will improve, but the public land ones will not. It’s sort of turning me into a radical in someways. I love chunks of earth like I love people. One of the chief reasons we love people has to do with their character. We are seeing the character of places dissolve and disappear. We are witnessing a mass die off.

A book I’ve read twice in the last month is K Ross Toole’s, “ The Rape of the Great Plains.” He was sort of sounding the alarm on some thing that never came to fruition in the magnitude he thought it would, but his sentiment carries over into this crisis. And I believe it is a crisis, whether or not the frogs have realized that the pot is boiling yet.

 

[Europe]

.

out of respect for Randy, I will say nothing !

I do hope April see's s this post and responds as she is far more tactful than I

Randi, thank you for the invite to respond to his post and I would like to do so but I made a promise to Big Fin that I intend to keep.