should teachers be armed, at school

[1_pointer]

I'm not sure on my stance of allowing teachers to be armed. For one, I can't see the schools allowing it out of a fear of what happens if the teacher or the teachers weapon hurts/kills a student. Even in light of slowing/stopping something like Newtown, the death of one student by the 'hero' would overshadow it for lots of folks.

I think first of all that the parents of the students should have some say in it. They should be involved in the details and let it go to a vote needed on if a school district should allow it or not.

This could never be allowed to happen. The only result I could see from this would be a cluster_uck of epic proporitons. IMO this type of law/reg has to come from, at a minimum, the state level.

 

[Big Fin]

............
I have heard parents here saying we need a security guard, but where I live they never pass a mill levy and our school district needs to run at 86 % of their budget. Everybody wants more things for schools but don't want to pay for them. School security guards would be great, but where I live they want no tax increase or levies for schools.

And there is the problem.

Even if by some miracle, arming teachers was a solution (which it is not) many of the people who promote this idea are also the ones who bitch about taxes, bitch about teachers, would want teachers to pay for it out of their own pockets, etc. Or, they will want it to come out of already underfunded current school budgets.

If the idea, a novel one in theory and a terrible one in practicality, is all the gun owners can come up with and is what we want to spend our time arguing for, then gun owners are going to get what they deserve when the smoke clears on these topics.

Seeing how the discussion has went on this thread and on other forums, I worry where the gun owners are going on the bigger picture of solutions to these kind of problems. If this is all we have to offer, we are doing no one any favors, especially the long-term interest of gun ownership.

Interested to hear what the NRA says when they finally say anything. Hopefully it will have some depth and substance to it.

 

[CILhunter]

I don't think that teachers should be armed for security's sake. I do think that schools should not be "gun free zones". If a teacher has a valid CCW permit, they should be allowed to carry, provided they follow the same rules applicable for everyone else who has CCW, including keeping their weapon secure and concealed. The bigger question is how we handle mental illness in this country, but that would be a jack of this thread.

Having a weapon is not always necessary, depending on the situation. In my city, a few months ago a high school kid brought a backpack with 3 firearms, an axe and a bottle of lighter fluid to school. When class started he pulled out the guns and fired a round into the ceiling. He walked to the front of the room and told the kids to stay still. While pacing in front of the room and talking, he turned his back on a couple of the kids sitting in the corner, and they ran from the room. When the noise distracted him and he turned to look, the teacher (new teacher, only hired the week before school) tackled him. A couple of the kids grabbed his arms and secured the weapons, and he was restrained until SWAT arrived. I only bring this up because it impacts my earlier statement about mental illness, because yesterday that kid pled guilty, but mentally ill, to his crimes. Unfortunately he was being tried as a juvenile, so in this state, the longest he can be locked up is until age 21, or about 6 years in his case.

 

[Devil Diver Down]

And there is the problem.

Even if by some miracle, arming teachers was a solution (which it is not) many of the people who promote this idea are also the ones who bitch about taxes, bitch about teachers, would want teachers to pay for it out of their own pockets, etc. Or, they will want it to come out of already underfunded current school budgets.

If the idea, a novel one in theory and a terrible one in practicality, is all the gun owners can come up with and is what we want to spend our time arguing for, then gun owners are going to get what they deserve when the smoke clears on these topics.

Seeing how the discussion has went on this thread and on other forums, I worry where the gun owners are going on the bigger picture of solutions to these kind of problems. If this is all we have to offer, we are doing no one any favors, especially the long-term interest of gun ownership.

Interested to hear what the NRA says when they finally say anything. Hopefully it will have some depth and substance to it.

Agreed - very well stated. "Solutions" will be generated - whether they address the real problems or not - by people who have other agendas and it is only a matter of time.

I don't think - or at least hope - this isn't all we have to offer or remotely the best idea that gun owners can come up with, but at least it's a jumping off point for the discussion to begin. I think it's a terrible idea, but it is exponentially better than sitting idly by and simply hoping the national spotlight doesn't turn to gun control topics.

Free mental health care is an interesting idea put forth in this thread, but considering the heated debate on this board (and nationwide) about ObummerCare already, I would say chances are remote or a little worse.

 

[Straight Arrow]

As a retired volunteer tutor and mentor, I spend several hours two to four days each week in the rural kindergarten through eighth grade school in my community. I can tell you that the teachers here, although mostly from hunting families, would not want firearms in the school unless carried by law enforcement professionals (as visibly worn by the DARE police officer and the sheriff deputy liason officer). Teachers are way too busy and have alot of educational materials in the classroom and hallways. Point is; they don't want to, nor should they have to, deal with something additional, especially something needing extra special security and safety precautions. Just the consideration of storage and availability is overly complex.

Recently additional fencing and security cameras were installed at this school, primarily to mitigate vandalism problems. I think additional property taxes for enhanced security measures would be much more easily accepted than an arsenal and lock boxes for the faculty.

 

[pa mt man]

I am a teacher and when I want to do a little hunting after school and have a firearm in my truck I need to park off school property. I can't see our district wanting me to carry a gun. I don't want to carry a gun, and I have a concealed carry permit. I want to teach.

I have heard parents here saying we need a security guard, but where I live they never pass a mill levy and our school district needs to run at 86 % of their budget. Everybody wants more things for schools but don't want to pay for them. School security guards would be great, but where I live they want no tax increase or levies for schools.

I Don't agree. This is now life or death. I changed my mind on security guards. Pretty easy to explain to the taxpayers that the children need Math,English,History and Counseling. Seems like school boards like to chop Counselors first when times get tough. We also HAVE to protect our children and school employees with TRAINED and Armed security guards.
Some of the other expenses will have to will have to get chopped if you don't won't to pay higher taxes.

We in Butler are lucky.Last nights paper said that the guards Butler is going to arm are 16 retired state troopers at the high school who have been working as our security guards. Trouble is where my wife works is an elementary school where they have a good old retired guy that's not going to stop a bad guy. She told me last night they hired another one so there will be two at every school.

 

[orion23]

they just need to lock the schools up and have an armed guard. doesnt matter if he is old and retired, just his presence will help. dont let anyone in without checking in through a window (bullet proof of course) and have the armed guard let them in. No one needs to be going in and out of a school anyway.

every classroom should be locked also.

 

[Nemont]

they just need to lock the schools up and have an armed guard. doesnt matter if he is old and retired, just his presence will help. dont let anyone in without checking in through a window (bullet proof of course) and have the armed guard let them in. No one needs to be going in and out of a school anyway.

every classroom should be locked also.

They have these already, they are called prisons.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

I agree with Nemont, nothing like sending kids to prison to learn.

Wow!

 

[What Map]

Even if by some miracle, arming teachers was a solution (which it is not) ..... is all the gun owners can come up with and is what we want to spend our time arguing for, then gun owners are going to get what they deserve when the smoke clears on these topics.

Seeing how the discussion has went on this thread and on other forums, I worry where the gun owners are going on the bigger picture of solutions to these kind of problems. If this is all we have to offer, we are doing no one any favors, especially the long-term interest of gun ownership.

Interested to hear what the NRA says when they finally say anything. Hopefully it will have some depth and substance to it.

Fin, I think your analysis is correct. I have seen many ideas presented on this thread in addition to allowing school emplyees to have weapons in lock boxes. These other solutions such as armed security, metal dectectors, mental health care, increased taxes for security, etc. need to be presented by the NRA. I would like to see the lock boxes continue to be debated, but other solutions should lead the national discussion or gun owners will not be part of the political solutions.

 

[emrah1028]

You know, I think we're trying to apply logic to a situation or, rather, individuals who defy logic. You cannot prepare for every instance for when these people "flip". This guy WAS resisted and he merely shot out a window and got in anyway. The armed security guy would be the first target. I don't know what the solution is.

I used to be among the "arm the teachers" crowd, but I'm not so sure now. I DO, however, think we need to take down the silly "gun free zone" signs. There are people called "armed citizens". We walk amongst you. 99% of the time, you'd never know it. Concealed is concealed. We hope to God we never have to let anyone see it. While I would not want mandatory arming of teachers, I do think teachers who do hold a carry permit be allowed to carry, if they so choose.

I hear on t.v./radio, whatever that there is a danger of having kids access to the teacher's gun in the class. They're assuming it would stay locked up in a desk or something. For those of us that carry every day, NO ONE needs to know. It's concealed and it's on our person.

I don't understand the theory that a gun is considered ok and acceptable when on a police officer (who only gets trained and qualifies once, maybe twice per year), but is somehow more dangerous than a nuclear weapon when carried by an armed citizen, who I can almost guarantee you, knows more about guns, ammo, ballistics, and shoots and trains more than your average cop. I'm not saying they're SWAT team or Seal Team Six level, but to blindly assume that cops "should" carry and that citizens should not is grossly negligent.

The media doesn't help. They perpetuate the image that a cop somehow knows what he's doing and can outshoot the average citizen. Look at NYC earlier this year. A cop shot NINE FREAKING PEOPLE by accident when trying to shoot a bad guy.

Emrah

 

[fowladdict]

Our teachers certainly don't need to start carrying a gun, but I might not be oppossed to teachers carrying pepper spray, a stun gun or something similar.

 

[putm2sleep]

Lots of great points from different perspectives here. I am an educator too, and see all / hear all here at our high school. We have a campus security team in place, that includes one of Ft Collins' finest in uniform everyday. We also have a campus security officer that patrols our campus, in addition to 4 campus supervisors who know all of our 1600 students.
>>>We train on 'lock downs'. Just like we did fire drills back in the day. Law enforcement ensures that we pass these tests once per semster. These days, things are different.
No. Teachers should not carry, or need guns at school. (I am not to even bring my bow in my truck to school in the event I want to fly out of here for an afternoon hunt, I must park off campus.)

The answers are :
1. Tighten security - keep the measures put in in place, in practice.
2. Practice drills for when this situation happens.
3. Teachers have to be 'plugged in', know their students better. Communicate! It is sad, but feel this is lacking. There is not enough talking with parents and caring about these kids!
Mental health is A HUGE issue - the tragic cocktail is drugs, exposure to violence (tv/news/video games = another shiT cocktail) and no love. It plays out over and over here at the high school and everywhere across the US. >In these cases, and we just had a student commit suicide last week??!??!? the kid is on an ADD med or depression meds, or sleep meds that has not been adjusted for years.
4. A nuclear family. Again, the issue is often no adult presence, no adult supervision = no love?

 

[cowboy]

Our teachers certainly don't need to start carrying a gun, but I might not be oppossed to teachers carrying pepper spray, a stun gun or something similar.

Never thought of your above solution - BUT - it does have some merit.

My wife and her side of family have a long history of being educators - as well as hunters. I can argue both sides of this and the bottom line is when the feces hits the rotator most people will react differently.

I am dead against having teachers packing heat - know way too many of them that are really good people/teachers but in the heat of battle I would not want them to be responsible for taking out a wacko.

 

[passinthru]

There are many great points in this discussion, and I agree, mental health needs much more of our focus.

I don't have an answer, and don't believe just one action will solve this complex of an issue.

But, I agree with Schmalts, why would we deny a law abiding citizen aka our teacher the ability to conceal and carry if they so choose. I don't see what's different about allowing them to conceal in other venues, but we deem schools off limits.

Again, not forcing anyone to carry that doesn't want to. Or making them keep one in a safe in their room, just not denying them their right to protect themselves and their students. Maybe stunguns and pepperspray would be a great start.

I personally would supply each teacher in our school district, at minimum pepper spray, if this was allowed.

There, no funding argument.

My children are why I'm here, what these parents in Conn. are dealing with....... I just can't begin to imagine. My families thoughts and prayers are with them everyday.

 

[noharleyyet]

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Villalba-Allow-Teachers-to-Carry-Concealed-Guns--183967301.html

Harrold ISD is about 30 miles west of here. They've had CC in their school since 2008. Small rural community, about 110 students.

I won't say if it is demographically suited for all schools but I'll go with the ounce of prevention theory for communities that choose to be proactive.

 

[orion23]

They have these already, they are called prisons.

Nemont

i guess i havent been to prison to know what its like but my kindergartners school already has each classroom door locked at all times, most doors to the outside except a couple are locked now. locking a couple more doors isnt going to change anything that the kids will see and the armed guard would not have to be like a prison officer. not saying shackle them and put them all in jump suits!!! ha...

locking your doors at home wouldnt seem like prison would it?

This is in boise idaho, a safe place to live and they already do most of it.

Why would you think this is prison like? the kids wouldnt even know the difference except a new guy standing at the front. just because its locked up doesnt mean its a prison. the kids cant go outside anyway except for recess. the kids still get the same great schooling, respect etc as they do now. i see it being nothing like prison. Sounds like safety to me.

A better solution would be???

 

[pa mt man]

The armed security guy would be the first target.

I HOPE SO! That's what ARMED security is there for!!!

 

[pa mt man]

Tonights paper.
PARENTS BACK ARMED GUARDS!http://www.butlereagle.com/
Let the people decide through their elected school board. Nemont and Buzz have decided. If the majority decides like them, ok. Just like they voted out game farms. Majority rules.

 

[jerrym]

Our teachers certainly don't need to start carrying a gun, but I might not be oppossed to teachers carrying pepper spray, a stun gun or something similar.

I agree 100%, great response fowladdict. I work in a middle school and kids do silly things all the time without thinking of the consequences. Example, about every year a kid brings a toy plastic gun that looks real to school. Even with all the laws and talking to them it happens every so often. Could a teacher live with themselves if they killed them? We need to leave guns to the professionally trained security guards and police.