blue devil
Member
Why not put some of the out of work military veterans that know how to handle a weapon as security? That creates jobs & gives some protection to the schools?
should teachers be armed, at school
- Thread starter huntme
- Start date
oldman357
New member
what this guy said, mental health access needs to be free.
There are soldiers in classes at many colleges. Why not have guns available to them quickly? I work in a class room. I shoot 100-200 rounds each week during the summer. I would be able to handle a gun if needed to protect myself. Also, my sister was murdered by her husband a Colorado Spring's cop who then committed suicide. He had the "right" to have a gun.
This is just horrible...I haven't read the papers or watched the news feeds, for some reason i just can't bring myself to process this massacre.
Last week during dinner my wife (an educator) was discussing the "lock down" drill the school went thru that day. For the uninitiated, the primary response to threats at public schools is to announce "lockdown" or some similar action word which sets in motion teachers locking their classroom doors from the inside then sheparding the students to an area in the room assumed most safe. Likewise, some type of symbol is placed in the window of the classroom door indicating lock down has been achieved.
I looked at my wife and two kids (also in the public school system) and just thought this is insanity.
The horrible evidence is right in front of us....our current strategies aren't working.
I appreciate the intentions and need to have a well rounded dialogue about the potential causes of this type of behavior and possible remedies, however, we need to focus on the main concern at hand and that is securing our schools.
Just like our response to 9/11, we need to come to terms that there are crazies who when bent on harming us will, unless, we have more than passive protective measures in place............... while waiting for the calvary to arrive and parametics afterwards.
We have the ability and know how to protect our schools, now it takes the political will power and leadership of well reasoned, fact based frank discussions about how to secure our schools and appropriate responses when a threat is actively occurring.
That response is most likely going to be armed and trained personel, be they educators or additional payroll.
Just an aside, I went to a large public high school in south florida in the late 1970's, 48% of the students were bussed in from another district (remember bussing - the need to integrate?). We had 3 riots in 3 years which led to the school closing for several days. I was present for 2 of the riots..the first 2, it was complete mayhem...every person for themselves, very violent and no well thought out responses in place. The school ended up with armed security roaming the halls and premises at all times. From what I have heard this practice is still in place and there have been no large scale problems since.
Last week during dinner my wife (an educator) was discussing the "lock down" drill the school went thru that day. For the uninitiated, the primary response to threats at public schools is to announce "lockdown" or some similar action word which sets in motion teachers locking their classroom doors from the inside then sheparding the students to an area in the room assumed most safe. Likewise, some type of symbol is placed in the window of the classroom door indicating lock down has been achieved.
I looked at my wife and two kids (also in the public school system) and just thought this is insanity.
The horrible evidence is right in front of us....our current strategies aren't working.
I appreciate the intentions and need to have a well rounded dialogue about the potential causes of this type of behavior and possible remedies, however, we need to focus on the main concern at hand and that is securing our schools.
Just like our response to 9/11, we need to come to terms that there are crazies who when bent on harming us will, unless, we have more than passive protective measures in place............... while waiting for the calvary to arrive and parametics afterwards.
We have the ability and know how to protect our schools, now it takes the political will power and leadership of well reasoned, fact based frank discussions about how to secure our schools and appropriate responses when a threat is actively occurring.
That response is most likely going to be armed and trained personel, be they educators or additional payroll.
Just an aside, I went to a large public high school in south florida in the late 1970's, 48% of the students were bussed in from another district (remember bussing - the need to integrate?). We had 3 riots in 3 years which led to the school closing for several days. I was present for 2 of the riots..the first 2, it was complete mayhem...every person for themselves, very violent and no well thought out responses in place. The school ended up with armed security roaming the halls and premises at all times. From what I have heard this practice is still in place and there have been no large scale problems since.
Nemont
Well-known member
My 2 cents, my wife teaches 2nd grade at a very small school 15 miles away from where we live. There is no law enforcement in the small town, the sheriff's office would take a minimum of 15 minutes to respond. Having said that she says arming teachers would not make anybody safer in her opinion.
First she says that already they have almost no time to get done the things they need to train on, From the new walk to read program, to curriculum, to grades, to whatever they already have on their plates. To take time out to train to be not only certified but also proficient with a weapon would be a very big burden. Let's face it just having a weapon isn't enough, in addition shooting is a perishable skill that requires constant practice to remain proficient. I can't imagine the taxpayers being thrilled about that expense when they don't want to pay for new textbooks now.
Second it goes against almost all the nature of elementary schools and elementary school teachers to have weapons inside their class rooms. In addition she points out that many of her coworkers, while not anti gun are very, very uncomfortable with having guns themselves.
Third, there isn't any proof that having arms inside this or any other school would result in a different outcome. If this guy was mental enough to execute young children, do you really think the possibility that somebody may have a gun in their purse would change his delusional mind? Did you see the interview with the State Trooper who said if this guy had wanted to get into a gun battle with the cops that they would have been outgunned prior to SWAT arriving. You really think your wife's snub nosed .38 special is going to deter a guy with a Bushmaster, body armor and a deranged mind?
I am all for carrying if that is your thing but teachers are not going to take up arms nor should they.
Nemont
First she says that already they have almost no time to get done the things they need to train on, From the new walk to read program, to curriculum, to grades, to whatever they already have on their plates. To take time out to train to be not only certified but also proficient with a weapon would be a very big burden. Let's face it just having a weapon isn't enough, in addition shooting is a perishable skill that requires constant practice to remain proficient. I can't imagine the taxpayers being thrilled about that expense when they don't want to pay for new textbooks now.
Second it goes against almost all the nature of elementary schools and elementary school teachers to have weapons inside their class rooms. In addition she points out that many of her coworkers, while not anti gun are very, very uncomfortable with having guns themselves.
Third, there isn't any proof that having arms inside this or any other school would result in a different outcome. If this guy was mental enough to execute young children, do you really think the possibility that somebody may have a gun in their purse would change his delusional mind? Did you see the interview with the State Trooper who said if this guy had wanted to get into a gun battle with the cops that they would have been outgunned prior to SWAT arriving. You really think your wife's snub nosed .38 special is going to deter a guy with a Bushmaster, body armor and a deranged mind?
I am all for carrying if that is your thing but teachers are not going to take up arms nor should they.
Nemont
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Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Nemont, great points and a very realistic perspective, with which I can only agree completely.
Short of encapsulating a school or other facility in an imprenetrable security bubble, there is no way to stop such a mentally unstable person who seemingly has no conscience and cares little about his own life. In my opinion, we need better means of identifying such potential problem people and trying to help and deal with them. Also, once someone has committed homicide, be it one or masses, get the judicial system in a higher gear and deal with them harshly .... not just a cushiy cell and comfortable existence. If there ever were a case for capital punishment, this may be it. If it were a deterent in just one case of preventing this kind of mass homicide, then it needs to remain as a consequence.
Short of encapsulating a school or other facility in an imprenetrable security bubble, there is no way to stop such a mentally unstable person who seemingly has no conscience and cares little about his own life. In my opinion, we need better means of identifying such potential problem people and trying to help and deal with them. Also, once someone has committed homicide, be it one or masses, get the judicial system in a higher gear and deal with them harshly .... not just a cushiy cell and comfortable existence. If there ever were a case for capital punishment, this may be it. If it were a deterent in just one case of preventing this kind of mass homicide, then it needs to remain as a consequence.
the old saying,no one ever raped a 38,and yes a women or a man with a 38 behind a wall,or under a desk,could deter or stop a bushmaster,most body armor usually covers,chest,maybe legs,not feet,or head,or neck,or hand,and even if you hit them in the chest,at 10 feet or less,they will not be breathing well after the first shot,so yes,she could stop a person with a bushmaster,and body armor.and if teachers were shooting at him from say 4 or 5 directions,and hitting him with allmost every round,that nut job would have broken ribs,and brused ribs,and his lungs would hurt,and the airflow to his lungs would be short.:hump:
I don't understand the first comment.... No one would be safer if an armed personnel was there in the event a nut job started killing in the school a long way from the nearest police
How about the teachers that died trying to take this guy down?Second, the choice of having the gun should be the teachers and not forced on them if they are uncomfortable. A fingerprint ID lock box in a teachers desk is as secure as it gets.
Third, no proof also that the outcome would have been a lot less dead kids either, so stick with worst case just because why??
Some of these teachers died trying to take this guy down, to say that a teacher or as buzz put it a doughnut eating security person would not have any effect in all the past cases is bull. Once again, these are not highly trained mercenaries here, just nut cases who are the only person in a gun free zone. Talk about bringing a gun to a knife fight.
If teachers are uncomfortable with having a gun in school then they should really be uncomfortable with the thought of the fact that the killer has the only gun. Sounds like they want to avoid the reality of all of this.
This would be interesting to know, if anyone would, and should ask the parents of the slain children this question:
"If you could turn back the hand of time, would you approve that qualified teachers in your child's school were allowed to have a gun stored in a fingerprint ID lock box in their desks?"
Would the answers those parents give effect your thoughts on this?
Maybe the killing would have happened, but maybe in all the past school killing the body count would be a lot lower. Think of how long the rampage at Columbine went on.
I can tell you this I know of 2 teachers personally who would gladly have a gun in a lock box. I asked them this already. More than a few teachers are hunters, vets, and hunter safety teachers. They are comfortable with shooting and would feel more comfortable trying to take down a killer armed rather than not.
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Nemont
Well-known member
The rampage at Columbine went on so long because police wait outside the school for 42 minutes rather than enter the building.
There is a difference between have "armed personnel" and armed teachers.
If you guys think armed teachers make sense that is fine, the one I am married to, who has had the intruder in the building training, shoots her 20 gauge with the best of them, has shot my .45 and .22 pistols with no problem thinks you are out there.
We can barely figure out how to determine whether a teacher is licenses in the correct specialty and have to ask for waivers for teachers to teach in areas they are ot licenses but we are going to spend the time and effort to determine which teacher is "qualified" to carry? Who is going to pick up the expense of this? A teacher making $30,000 a year isn't going to highly motivated to go buy a piece, the ammo, pay for the instruction, pay for the permit to carry. The schools already are strapped for extra money. They don't even want to buy new text books but they are going to spring for arming teachers? Highly doubtful.
Just like these shooters are not trained mercenaries neither are the teachers trained to deal with the stress of being shot at and then having the ability to fire back.
Think as you wish but I highly doubt if you ask the parents of those killed if them believed adding more guns to that school would be the safe and sane way to have prevented this.
How about dealing with the reality of even though this is a huge tragedy, the chances of being killed in a school shooting are far less than that of kid dying in a bus accident going to and from school, don't hear anybody saying they shouldn't get on that bus. Far more kids die at the hands of their parents every year than are killed in school shootings, I am not making light of this tragic and stupid incident but if you are exercised about this but look that other way with all the real problems facing kids in school today then perhaps your priorities need to be reviewed.
Arming teacher is a huge overreaction to something that just doesn't happen that often. Should they issue guns at the doors of movie theaters and malls as well? Again the response has to rational and not emotional.
Flame away.
Nemont
There is a difference between have "armed personnel" and armed teachers.
If you guys think armed teachers make sense that is fine, the one I am married to, who has had the intruder in the building training, shoots her 20 gauge with the best of them, has shot my .45 and .22 pistols with no problem thinks you are out there.
We can barely figure out how to determine whether a teacher is licenses in the correct specialty and have to ask for waivers for teachers to teach in areas they are ot licenses but we are going to spend the time and effort to determine which teacher is "qualified" to carry? Who is going to pick up the expense of this? A teacher making $30,000 a year isn't going to highly motivated to go buy a piece, the ammo, pay for the instruction, pay for the permit to carry. The schools already are strapped for extra money. They don't even want to buy new text books but they are going to spring for arming teachers? Highly doubtful.
Just like these shooters are not trained mercenaries neither are the teachers trained to deal with the stress of being shot at and then having the ability to fire back.
Think as you wish but I highly doubt if you ask the parents of those killed if them believed adding more guns to that school would be the safe and sane way to have prevented this.
How about dealing with the reality of even though this is a huge tragedy, the chances of being killed in a school shooting are far less than that of kid dying in a bus accident going to and from school, don't hear anybody saying they shouldn't get on that bus. Far more kids die at the hands of their parents every year than are killed in school shootings, I am not making light of this tragic and stupid incident but if you are exercised about this but look that other way with all the real problems facing kids in school today then perhaps your priorities need to be reviewed.
Arming teacher is a huge overreaction to something that just doesn't happen that often. Should they issue guns at the doors of movie theaters and malls as well? Again the response has to rational and not emotional.
Flame away.
Nemont
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Sounds like she is not a candidate for being an armed teacher, so we should deny the rest who may be?
"Think as you wish but I highly doubt if you ask the parents of those killed if them believed adding more guns to that school would be the safe and sane way to have prevented this". My kid is still alive, and I would welcome armed teachers. I have a hard time thinking no one else, including a parent of a slain kid would not have wanted that option even if it failed in the attempt
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Schmalts,
You need to think this thing through...and NO you arent.
Heres why you arent.
I grew up in a town and went to school in a State that is perfectly fine with firearms. That said, I bet less than 20% of the teachers I had were hunters, and I bet at least 70% were no real familiar with firearms. The handful that were familiar with firearms were hunters, probably pretty good with a rifle or shotgun, but like most, probably coudnt shoot a handgun for shit.
So, now you propose we ask teachers in big cities to be armed where I bet less than 10% are comfortable with a firearm and a majority may have never even fired a weapon of any kind.
That means training...and a lot of it. In particular if you actually want them to be even remotely proficient with a weapon.
Now for the funding issues that are sure to come up.
Are you willing to pay for ammo, range fees, practice time, training, lock boxes, firearms, vests, etc.?
If I were a Union Rep. in those schools, I'd be asking some serious questions about all those things. I'd also be asking, that since we're now asking Teachers to be law enforcement, that a 20 year retirement with full benefits would be on the table.
Assuming that you were even half successful in negotiating with the Union on some of the things I mentioned ,and agreed to pay for everything needed, the next question is how successful would a teacher be in responding to a school shooting?
I'd have to think that running to a desk and getting the firearm out of a lockbox wouldnt be all that easy with a room full of screaming kids. I also question whether a teacher would go for the gun first, or try to keep the kids calm, lock the doors, etc.
Assuming that in all the confusion, the teacher gets the weapon out of the lock box. By this time the cops are on the way and likely getting to the scene. The teacher is now expected to calmy blast some dude wearing body armor in the head, likely while being shot at. Now the cops enter the scene and the teacher AND the crazy are both brandishing weapons. The cops cant see the crazy, but they do see "someone" blasting away with a handgun near a bunch of kids.
I wonder how that would work out for the teacher? I wonder if the cops would have the capacity to recognize that the dude/dudette, with the firearm was a teacher?
What you're proposing is a joke. The chances of an armed teacher playing John Wayne and saving the day are remote...at best remote. More than likely, it will make the situation worse.
You keep saying these nut-jobs arent mercenaries. No, they arent, but what they ARE is a person thats already justified killing in their mind. They've calculated what they intend to do, many even practice the situation before they do it. They're not worried about a classroom full of kids, going home to their families after work, and they sure as hell arent scard to die.
Those type of people, in that state of mind, will always have an incredible edge over someone who wants to see their family again, their kids again, and doesnt want to die.
I'm sure what you picture in your mind is a dirty harry movie...the teacher with the handgun calmly asking the bad guy "If they feel lucky?".
You're living in fantasyland.
Teachers are hired to teach...not defend a nation.
You need to think this thing through...and NO you arent.
Heres why you arent.
I grew up in a town and went to school in a State that is perfectly fine with firearms. That said, I bet less than 20% of the teachers I had were hunters, and I bet at least 70% were no real familiar with firearms. The handful that were familiar with firearms were hunters, probably pretty good with a rifle or shotgun, but like most, probably coudnt shoot a handgun for shit.
So, now you propose we ask teachers in big cities to be armed where I bet less than 10% are comfortable with a firearm and a majority may have never even fired a weapon of any kind.
That means training...and a lot of it. In particular if you actually want them to be even remotely proficient with a weapon.
Now for the funding issues that are sure to come up.
Are you willing to pay for ammo, range fees, practice time, training, lock boxes, firearms, vests, etc.?
If I were a Union Rep. in those schools, I'd be asking some serious questions about all those things. I'd also be asking, that since we're now asking Teachers to be law enforcement, that a 20 year retirement with full benefits would be on the table.
Assuming that you were even half successful in negotiating with the Union on some of the things I mentioned ,and agreed to pay for everything needed, the next question is how successful would a teacher be in responding to a school shooting?
I'd have to think that running to a desk and getting the firearm out of a lockbox wouldnt be all that easy with a room full of screaming kids. I also question whether a teacher would go for the gun first, or try to keep the kids calm, lock the doors, etc.
Assuming that in all the confusion, the teacher gets the weapon out of the lock box. By this time the cops are on the way and likely getting to the scene. The teacher is now expected to calmy blast some dude wearing body armor in the head, likely while being shot at. Now the cops enter the scene and the teacher AND the crazy are both brandishing weapons. The cops cant see the crazy, but they do see "someone" blasting away with a handgun near a bunch of kids.
I wonder how that would work out for the teacher? I wonder if the cops would have the capacity to recognize that the dude/dudette, with the firearm was a teacher?
What you're proposing is a joke. The chances of an armed teacher playing John Wayne and saving the day are remote...at best remote. More than likely, it will make the situation worse.
You keep saying these nut-jobs arent mercenaries. No, they arent, but what they ARE is a person thats already justified killing in their mind. They've calculated what they intend to do, many even practice the situation before they do it. They're not worried about a classroom full of kids, going home to their families after work, and they sure as hell arent scard to die.
Those type of people, in that state of mind, will always have an incredible edge over someone who wants to see their family again, their kids again, and doesnt want to die.
I'm sure what you picture in your mind is a dirty harry movie...the teacher with the handgun calmly asking the bad guy "If they feel lucky?".
You're living in fantasyland.
Teachers are hired to teach...not defend a nation.
Nemont
Well-known member
So I guess sharing opinions from people who actually work in schools is meaningless to this debate? My wife actually has packed a gun in her purse when we lived in different parts of this country during my army days. It isn't that she is afraid to use a gun.
I don't know how you can suppose to put yourself into the head of a parent whose child was murdered in this way.
Nemont
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RobG
Well-known member
I don't know too many teachers who seem like the gun-nut types. I do remember when police tried to take down a shooter they wounded nine bystanders. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444812704577611553836585324.html.
Buzz, Nemont, your missing my point. Let me sum it up, dont make teachers arm themselves in school, but if they want to do it, don't deny them. Nemont, maybe you missed the part where I typed I know 2 teachers who already told me they would do so? They are not made up.
And again, the criminal mind is first the problem and needs to be dealt with, but until that time comes let someone who is proficient with a gun defend himself if he is qualified and willing. No forcing teachers to do this, just don't deny the ones who want to.
And again, the criminal mind is first the problem and needs to be dealt with, but until that time comes let someone who is proficient with a gun defend himself if he is qualified and willing. No forcing teachers to do this, just don't deny the ones who want to.
Buzz, in all the past school shootings, how successful was the teachers at defending against the shooter, how did it work out for ANY teacher who tried to defend the kids?
How many times did the police get there with time left to worry about shooting a teacher in all the past shootings?
In all or most cases it was a turkey shoot. To think things would have been even worst if a teacher had a gun, hard to convince me of that.
And the cost of a fingerprint lock box in a school, and a little range time if a guy wanted to do so, a small price to pay.
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T
tjones
Guest
Who gets to decide if the ones that want to really should?
This is a good topic, but no one has all the answers. I think first of all that the parents of the students should have some say in it. They should be involved in the details and let it go to a vote needed on if a school district should allow it or not.
I haven't read all the posts but I don't think the teachers should be armed. I do think the schools should seriously consider having armed guards though. Almost every school usually has a security officer of some sort but it's usually just a low paying job that really has minimal qualifications. That position should be replaced with an armed security officer. There are plenty of retired military and/or law enforcement people who would be perfect for that type of position. It might require a little more civilized training and might cost more in salary, etc. But if that means a little more out of the school budget or a small tax hike to provide the funds for this type of position then I'm sure anyone would gladly pay it. Something like this would act more as a deterrent than anything but if something bad were to happen it'd be nice to have an armed/trained person who might be able to handle situation.
whiskeydog
Active member
I am an avid hunter, own several guns, have a conceal carry permit, and would rather die than give up the 2nd amendment. that being said, arming teachers, whether they want to carry or not, is asinine. consider this...take a school has excellent security, metal detectors, etc which make it extremely difficult to get a gun past the front door. now arm your teachers. someone wants to shoot up the school, so where do they get the gun? easy...just knock down your 105 pound home economics teacher and take hers. schools are for education, and teachers are for teaching. a simple concealed carry class does not make them qualified to respond with force...they would be much better served to do what many of the heroes in CT did...spend their efforts in guiding kids to safety. the only way i would ever endorse guns in our schools would be with a properly trained security guard. if a school wanted to maintain a "teacher react force" made of teachers who had been through extensive training (and by extensive, i mean several weeks and several thousand rounds), i would buy off if the "react" guns were kept locked-up for emergencies only.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Schmalts,
Give up...its a dumb idea.
Give up...its a dumb idea.
