Red flag warnings

[bushman13]

100%. The fact we don't end the war on drugs and put this money directly towards pay vouchers for cops, is ludicrous.
I've always thought the starting salary should be around 125k. Imagine very competent people competing for a solid position. Sounds a little like industries we may work in.

In the defense of cops, doctors are typically over 30 with a decade of education and training including hours and hours of practical training in sensitivity and communication with patients with actors (and there still are tons of shitty ones). Often LEOs are 20 year olds with little comparative training, who are given a gun and a badge and asked to do a very stressful and often dangerous job.

 

[Rzrbck918]

Red flag is just another step to disarming you. This law will not work and when it doesn't they will push more restrictive laws. 28 years as a LEO has shown me that no law works all the time and the gun grabbers will just keep pushing. Next will be registration so they know where to find them.

I believe on our founding fathers said something to the effect, choosing safety over liberty one deserves neither.

I understand the sentiment and appreciate your perspective as an LEO. However, I don’t anticipate being the subject of the law. I’m not a homicidal crazy person and if I am then certainly it’s in the interest of the rest of society to disarm me at least temporarily.

I don’t think Ben Franklin meant what you think he meant in that quote. Might be worth a read to look at the context. Additionally, all of us trade liberty for security and safety; that’s the basis for Locke’s social contract. At this point all we are arguing about is the degree of sacrifice not the actuality.

Laws do work; not perfectly but certainly in degrees of effectiveness. I would find it difficult to imagine many of these mass shootings would not have been worse if there had been unfettered access to fully automatic weapons. It may not solve the problems but it might help some.

 

[Addicting]

I am rowing in the same current as Cushman. I am lucky that my wife stuck with me for better or worse. Over the last few years she has been dealing with the worse. One of my top fears in admitting I had a problem was how folks would look at me and I would end up in the crazy ward. A lot of those fears were just of the fear itself. What actually happened was far from that. I was welcomed at the VA, I have a couple very good Docs who have taken care of me. I am lucky to have that available to me.

Some don’t have that same opportunity. I would guess that most of these folks effected by this potential law are in that crowd.

Today I talked with the Doc about working on my Tatical pause. That brief moment of clarity before I go all PTSD on someone. Time to get my thoughts straight to know I am not in danger and can deal with the situation appropriately.

I see this law as a forced tactical pause for those that don’t have the resources I have. Does it suck, yep, but something we learned to do was embrace the suck. Something America needs to learn to be successful if this passes.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I am rowing in the same current as Cushman. I am lucky that my wife stuck with me for better or worse. Over the last few years she has been dealing with the worse. One of my top fears in admitting I had a problem was how folks would look at me and I would end up in the crazy ward. A lot of those fears were just of the fear itself. What actually happened was far from that. I was welcomed at the VA, I have a couple very good Docs who have taken care of me. I am lucky to have that available to me.

Some don’t have that same opportunity. I would guess that most of these folks effected by this potential law are in that crowd.

Today I talked with the Doc about working on my Tatical pause. That brief moment of clarity before I go all PTSD on someone. Time to get my thoughts straight to know I am not in danger and can deal with the situation appropriately.

I see this law as a forced tactical pause for those that don’t have the resources I have. Does it suck yep, but something we learned to do was embrace the suck. Something America needs to learn to be successful if this passes.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!

And thank you for sharing your struggle in the hopes others may find it as cause to reach out for help themselves.

 

[bts09]

First, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!

This.

Second, thank you for being transparent with your challenges - I hope your willingness to be open will encourage others with similar challenges to seek help, and to realize they are not alone.

This.

Third, what a great thread, @BigFin should be proud of how his HTers can discuss these difficult issues with civility - not sure you can find anything else like this on the “interweb”.

And this.

 

[Jape]

They are hard to enforce (in part) because removing someone's rights should carry a high due process threshold. I'm don't see how why the 5th and 2nd would be different in that regard.

They really aren’t when you look at the precedence but it’s important to remember that there is precedence, and rightly so.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I hear a lot of people in different places trying to blame video games and stumbled across this while checking my email. Just madness and no gun needed.

Ga. Teen Strangled Sister to Death Over WiFi Password, Gets Life in Prison

Ga. Teen Strangled Sister to Death Over WiFi Password

www.yahoo.com

 

[hossblur]

Maybe im missing something. Since when in this country do you have to prove yourself innocent? Do religious leaders and the press also have to prove themselves not mentality deficient in order to express their rights? The bill of rights are there to tell government what it can't do.

 

[Werty]

Exhibit A. This is not to suggest we can’t make some reasonable laws to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous individuals and not violate the second amendment.

This grandmother reportedly stopped grandson contemplating mass shooting. Here's how

Special agents of the FBI and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives arrested a Lubbock, Texas, man for allegedly contemplating a mass shooting.

www.deseretnews.com

I know your just posting this, but the guy turned himself in for help. In doing so, may get up too 5 years in jail. Did I read this wrong? No doubt the guy needs help, I'm just not sure the answer is prison. Maybe I'm wrong!?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Maybe im missing something. Since when in this country do you have to prove yourself innocent? Do religious leaders and the press also have to prove themselves not mentality deficient in order to express their rights? The bill of rights are there to tell government what it can't do.

In the case of red flag seizures you would be proving yourself of sound mind, without intentions of harming yourself or others. So it's not really proving yourself innocent as you aren't being charged with a crime.

There are lots of examples where you have to prove mental competency, e.g. it's typically the first line of a Last Will and Testment " I Hossblur, being of sound mind...."

Also there are lots of times when doing something with under the influence of drugs or alcohol is illegal, because it puts you in a temporary state where you aren't of sound mind.

It's already illegal to have a gun on your person while intoxicated, in many jurisdictions (all of the US??). Habitual drunk drivers sometimes have to proof they are sober (innocent) to drive their car by means of breathalyzers wired into the ignition system.

Basically the burden is on the gun owner to prove their mind is no longer altered, per analogy above prove they are sober, once a judge has ruled that it is and issued the red flag.

(I'm not advocating for or against just responding to your question, I'm sure it was rhetorical but responding as if it wasn't.)

 

[jake23]

In the case of red flag seizures you would be proving yourself of sound mind, without intentions of harming yourself or others. So it's not really proving yourself innocent as you aren't being charged with a crime.

There are lots of examples where you have to prove mental competency, e.g. it's typically the first line of a Last Will and Testment " I Hossblur, being of sound mind...."

Also there are lots of times when doing something with under the influence of drugs or alcohol is illegal, because it puts you in a temporary state where you aren't of sound mind.

It's already illegal to have a gun on your person while intoxicated, in many jurisdictions (all of the US??). Habitual drunk drivers sometimes have to proof they are sober (innocent) to drive their car by means of breathalyzers wired into the ignition system.

Basically the burden is on the gun owner to prove their mind is no longer altered, per analogy above prove they are sober, once a judge has ruled that it is and issued the red flag.

(I'm not advocating for or against just responding to your question, I'm sure it was rhetorical but responding as if it wasn't.)

Geez, that sounds worse than what we have in CA! I hope that never comes to fruition.

 

[lr123]

I work for a large company that had a workplace violence event happen roughly 3-4 years ago. I worked on a project with the shooter before he moved buildings and took his managers life and his own life in the event. He was definitely "different" than most people but when shootings like this happen it doesn't seem to be a "normal" person. Be aware of the people around you at all times in work, home, public, etc and trust your instincts. Have a plan in mind to get you away from something as quickly as possible and be prepared to fight back if you have to. Unfortunately our companies policy pretty well limits the amount of protection we can have at work as we are limited to the tools around us such as prybars and hammers. New laws won't change the frequency of these events as its a cultural issue not a gun issue.

 

[Red Fox]

What I understand is the with the new law they can come in and get someone's guns before they do anything. One of many things I see wrong with this is how many of the guns? all or just the ones they can see or find? do they get to search the whole house or place?

I do know that some of these guys that have done the shootings the family knew something was wrong before hand. Having away to help them would of been better than just hoping that they would be fine

 

[RockinU]

In most cases the evil people that can even think about killing a innocent human get their firearm the illegal way. I agree with you can’t fix evil. Why punish the good people in the world and take their 2A away. The focus should be on the purchase of getting firearms the wrong way. Everybody goes through hard times in their life in one way or another but the normal person doesn’t turn to a gun to fix it. Have to protect the 2A.

I'm with you on protecting the 2A, but in the interest of accuracy, the vast majority of mass shooters have acquired the guns they used legally, or at least they passed the background check. Obviously there have been some who slipped through background check cracks, and others who it is apparent they should not have passed, but the fact remains that most of them did.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Maybe im missing something. Since when in this country do you have to prove yourself innocent? Do religious leaders and the press also have to prove themselves not mentality deficient in order to express their rights? The bill of rights are there to tell government what it can't do.

I am leary if red flag laws because of possible misuse as raised by others above, but TROs absolutely follow due process rules and do not shift the burden of proof from the state to the individual. They are used in all kinds of contexts and are undoubtedly part of our constitutional legal system.

 

[kmott]

guns don't kill people wackudoodles do!
outlawing guns will do nothing to stop crazies from killing.

there are many reasons these things continue.

first and foremost is the majority of our population will more often then not choose evil over good pretty much anytime they think no one is watching.people love all things evil! they just do. till they can face and admit this the shootings will continue.

add to that we are a society that is to lazy to raise our own kids but leave it to the public school system to do it .

then add in all the riddlin raised kids , who have been told their entire lives how special they are , instead of being taught to deal with the fact that they are in no way special and in no way entitled and you have the perfect receipe for chaos to rule the day.


this is the "common sense" discussions that needs be had . but hey , let's just ban some guns ,so all can feel good till some nut lights up the next event instead .

 

[Straight Arrow]

I am leary if red flag laws because of possible misuse as raised by others above, but TROs absolutely follow due process rules and do not shift the burden of proof from the state to the individual. They are used in all kinds of contexts and are undoubtedly part of our constitutional legal system.

The proposals I have read absolutely follow due process and furthermore include harsh punishment for the spouse or other party falsely submitting a "red flag" claim against a firearms owner.
Sadly, these discussions go on and on with philosophical musings and critiques of society's woes, without actionable proposals and without changing anyone's ideology about the 2nd Amendment. To advocate for the status quo because of a paranoia about "if THEY enact this, then next THEY are going to take your guns away!" is not in anyone's best interest and is not what has made America great.

 

[kmott]

The proposals I have read absolutely follow due process and furthermore include harsh punishment for the spouse or other party falsely submitting a "red flag" claim against a firearms owner.
Sadly, these discussions go on and on with philosophical musings and critiques of society's woes, without actionable proposals and without changing anyone's ideology about the 2nd Amendment. To advocate for the status quo because of a paranoia about "if THEY enact this, then next THEY are going to take your guns away!" is not in anyone's best interest and is not what has made America great.

folks striving to make things better for themselves and the next generation, without looking to government to solve all of societies woes is what made America great! being honest and facing those woes head on is what made America great !
first step in solving any problem , is admitting there is one. this we can do .
second step is admitting what that problem is . this we are not capable of doing.

 

[LWC55]

folks striving to make things better for themselves and the next generation, without looking to government to solve all of societies woes is what made America great! being honest and facing those woes head on is what made America great !
first step in solving any problem , is admitting there is one. this we can do .
second step is admitting what that problem is . this we are not capable of doing.

^^^^
X 100

 

[BigHornRam]

The proposals I have read absolutely follow due process and furthermore include harsh punishment for the spouse or other party falsely submitting a "red flag" claim against a firearms owner.
Sadly, these discussions go on and on with philosophical musings and critiques of society's woes, without actionable proposals and without changing anyone's ideology about the 2nd Amendment. To advocate for the status quo because of a paranoia about "if THEY enact this, then next THEY are going to take your guns away!" is not in anyone's best interest and is not what has made America great.

Look at the current FISA court abuses and the complete lack of interest by the MSM to expose these abuses. Call me skeptical about the true intentions of these proposals. Common sense, not paranoia.