lamdilligaf
Member
Agreed, but what can we do about that now? The past biologist should have been fired for his handling of the bitterroot elk herd, not transferred up north. At least he's gone.
MT Legislature - Week 10
- Thread starter Ben Lamb
- Start date
Agreed, but what can we do about that now? The past biologist should have been fired for his handling of the bitterroot elk herd, not transferred up north. At least he's gone.
mdunc8
Well-known member
OK, fine. Even if you consider leaving animals to starve to death as ethical, biologists develop management plans with estimated vital rates (i.e., births, deaths, etc.). In the case with wolves, I would imagine they err on the conservative side (although some argue that isn't this case), so they don't end up screwing themselves (and hunters) in the long run. They can accomplish that by building some illegal take into their models or setting quotas lower than what their models indicate are sustainable. Sure, adaptive management allows you to adjust yearly quotas accordingly, but when the USFWS or more importantly, advocacy groups, see an unexpected decline in numbers or recruitment, a %#!^ ton of heat is going to be placed on the state for not being able to manage a controlled hunt. It's also going to make hunters look like a bunch of inbred rednecks if word gets out that people are out illegally shooting pups, females with pups, or harvesting above the quota. If everyone plays by the rules, a managed wolf hunt shouldn't be too difficult. However, if we have a bunch of idiots running around the woods with their own management plans in mind, we'll be right back to where we are today.
lamdilligaf
Member
mdunc8,
How much room is there between todays wolf numbers and FWS minimun wolf numbers? How long will it take organized wolf seasons to reach acceptable lower wolf numbers? How many elk will be left in western Montana at that point? It certainly wasn't "ethical" the way FWS and the courts have handled this entire wolf issue. Anyone that has ever shot gophers or rock chucks in the spring has orphaned young animals. That's probably most of us on this site. My real point was that when a wildlife management issue gets as out of control as this wolf issue is, then it's time to leave the "feel good" requirements behind and take care of the problem.
How much room is there between todays wolf numbers and FWS minimun wolf numbers? How long will it take organized wolf seasons to reach acceptable lower wolf numbers? How many elk will be left in western Montana at that point? It certainly wasn't "ethical" the way FWS and the courts have handled this entire wolf issue. Anyone that has ever shot gophers or rock chucks in the spring has orphaned young animals. That's probably most of us on this site. My real point was that when a wildlife management issue gets as out of control as this wolf issue is, then it's time to leave the "feel good" requirements behind and take care of the problem.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Doesnt matter how much room there is for anything. It comes down to responsible stewardship of ALL wildlife.
I agree with you that wolf numbers are well past the minimums, but the plan never was to keep them right at the minimum levels. Everyone with more than a single firing brain cell new the population of wolves would be higher than the required minimums...has to be and in particular when you're hunting surplus animals.
Its an ignorant SOB that would squander a legal opportunity to control wolves via illegal methods or take illegal animals....period. It makes no sense and doesnt promote anything but a disregard for the states wildlife.
Success on this issue rests in the hands of responsibility and legal wolf control.
I agree with you that wolf numbers are well past the minimums, but the plan never was to keep them right at the minimum levels. Everyone with more than a single firing brain cell new the population of wolves would be higher than the required minimums...has to be and in particular when you're hunting surplus animals.
Its an ignorant SOB that would squander a legal opportunity to control wolves via illegal methods or take illegal animals....period. It makes no sense and doesnt promote anything but a disregard for the states wildlife.
Success on this issue rests in the hands of responsibility and legal wolf control.
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lamdilligaf
Member
Geez, How do you live such a shielded life that you can come up with such naive, idealistic crap like this. You should go into politics full time. You certainly have the mindset for it.
onpoint
Well-known member
Maybe if we go the complete other way and shoot lions on site, things will turn around
. From one extreme to the other. Someday I hope biology 101 dictates wildlife mgmt....predator/prey relationships, Carrying capacity, The North American Model Of Wildlife Conserva. ....OK I woke back up.
Would you shoot a sow black bear that had 3 visible cubs, in an area where elk numbers are low?
Just curious..
mdunc8
Well-known member
Good luck with that. I hope it works out for you in the end.
onpoint
Well-known member
That's a well put question....
lamdilligaf
Member
Ouch, that one hurts. I am aware of the impact of black bears on elk calves, but I'm not aware of any areas where the total number of black bears is way over the objective number. For that reason, I would say "No" I would not shoot such a sow. However, I would have no problem using my bear tag in an area like that.
T
tjones
Guest
Maybe if we go the complete other way and shoot lions on site, things will turn around
Somewhere between restrictive and killin the crap out of them works for me.
But then thats just me.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
There are no objective numbers for Black bears in given HD's that I"m aware of.
Lets say that the Griz are delisted, and you have a legal Griz license. Knowing that they are more responsible for calf deaths, than wolves, and just as over objective as wolves are, If given the chance would you shoot a Griz sow, with 3 cubs if given the chance? I mean as far as helping calf elk mortality, you would be far more ahead than killing a wolf mom.
Every time a supposed sportsman makes a statement, that he'll kill female wolves with young, you do the wolf lovers a service. How else can they raise the $30,000,000 they need for all the court cases?:W:
Yep....but "supposed sportsman" is even a little generous.
HB 286 was just crushed by the House 22-78.
This bill would have caused a diversion of PR/DJ monies and forced hunters and anglers to pay Wildlife Services to kill coyotes for sheep producers.
Galen Hollenbaugh D-Helena (my rep) stood up for hunters and anglers today and helped get this bill killed.
Write him and send a hearty thanks.
I know folks are tired and feeling beat up, but I cannot stress enough that your voice is being heard, and we will continue be a force. This is a big win folks. We continue to gain ground and we continue to light up the emails and phones.
Keep fighting.
This bill would have caused a diversion of PR/DJ monies and forced hunters and anglers to pay Wildlife Services to kill coyotes for sheep producers.
Galen Hollenbaugh D-Helena (my rep) stood up for hunters and anglers today and helped get this bill killed.
Write him and send a hearty thanks.
I know folks are tired and feeling beat up, but I cannot stress enough that your voice is being heard, and we will continue be a force. This is a big win folks. We continue to gain ground and we continue to light up the emails and phones.
Keep fighting.
lamdilligaf
Member
It keeps me up at night worrying about offending the wolf lovers. Come on SS! When has it ever been legal to kill a bear with cubs in Mt.? I did say "legal wolf tag" originally, and this was all in regards to what Ben said about them removing the "female wolf with pups" from the bill. Also, check your facts before making statements like the above one regarding the excess of grizzlies compared to wolves. They're not in the same league. By the way, you haven't explaned your previous post.
drahthaar
Active member
Do you have the named vote count on that? I would like to see our local guys on that. Only fair for me to right a deserved "thank you" if they helped vote that down. I have sent enough negative emails.
drahthaar
Active member
Won't help the cause in the long run shooting females with pups. Like it or not, public opinion needs to stay on our side. Just sayin.
T
tjones
Guest
drahthaar, click on the bill then click on the vote count and you can see who voted how.
T
tjones
Guest
[QUOTE\ ]I know folks are tired and feeling beat up, but I cannot stress enough that your voice is being heard, and we will continue be a force. This is a big win folks. We continue to gain ground and we continue to light up the emails and phones.
Keep fighting.[/QUOTE]
We are still with ya Ben, right to the damn end!
Keep fighting.[/QUOTE]
We are still with ya Ben, right to the damn end!
