Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Treeshark]

why Hunt Talk can be such a disappointing place.

It’s too bad that we have disappointed each other, but I hope you don’t let my posts form your opinion of Hunt Talk as a whole. I certainly don’t speak for the group on many of these issues, usually quite the opposite.

I appreciate Hunt Talk and @Big Fin for having the patience and tolerance (for now) to allow us a place to disagree.

 

[TOGIE]

It’s too bad that we have disappointed each other, but I hope you don’t let my posts form your opinion of Hunt Talk as a whole. I certainly don’t speak for the group on many of these issues, usually quite the opposite.

I appreciate Hunt Talk and @Big Fin for having the patience and tolerance (for now) to allow us a place to disagree.

you interject an essentially internet troll approach to any topic regarding western hunting and non residents in any thread it pops up in.

yes, it's contributing to why HT is becoming more and more a useless place to spend one's time.

 

[Treeshark]

you interject an essentially internet troll approach to any topic regarding NRs in any thread it pops up in.

I don’t see it that way. I feel that I question and generally disagree with any attempt at reducing NR opportunity disproportionate to resident reduction.

That has been happening quite a bit the past year or two, though- so I can see where you’re coming from.

I like your posts, @TOGIE- even when we don’t agree. If the way I speak up against ideas that reduce opportunity for NRs offends you, I apologize.

 

[Elktrack]

It’s too bad that we have disappointed each other, but I hope you don’t let my posts form your opinion of Hunt Talk as a whole. I certainly don’t speak for the group on many of these issues, usually quite the opposite.

I appreciate Hunt Talk and @Big Fin for having the patience and tolerance (for now) to allow us a place to disagree.

Wait, you don’t speak for all of HT? Are you suggesting that you speak for yourself despite being part of HT?
Hmmm…..
There’s another guy on here speaking his opinion despite belonging to a group. Seems as though the standard is different for him though.

 

[Treeshark]

Yeah dude… I am clearly not on the HT board.

 

[Rie Bread]

Montana doesn’t have the structure to limit NR to a specific region except to make all NR general licenses be a draw per region or something like that.

 

[Elktrack]

Montana doesn’t have the structure to limit NR to a specific region except to make all NR general licenses be a draw per region or something like that.

Really?
How is it any different than now? We apply for general tag that allows us to hunt general units and not LE units. Couldn’t they just make an entire region a LE for NR? Or break up the region into more units?
Seems like it is feasible without them having to completely reinvent the system.

 

[Rie Bread]

Really?
How is it any different than now? We apply for general tag that allows us to hunt general units and not LE units. Couldn’t they just make an entire region a LE for NR? Or break up the region into more units?
Seems like it is feasible without them having to completely reinvent the system.

I’m thinking they could but a simple pick your region I think would be disastrous for reg6/7 for I would guess that the 9k deer combos would go straight there to 6/7 and the elk combos would be spread out

 

[Elktrack]

I’m thinking they could but a simple pick your region I think would be disastrous for reg6/7 for I would guess that the 9k deer combos would go straight there to 6/7 and the elk combos would be spread out

You’re right. It would definitely need to be limited to prevent that from happening.

 

[antlerradar]

I am all for putting some limits on NR in 6&7, but anyone that thinks that any meaningful changes to mule deer will happen by mainly putting limits on NR has rose colored glasses. Only 40% of residents have bought a deer A tag every year for the past five years. 60% have skipped at least one year out of the last five years. That 60% is a huge pool of hunters that will start buying more tags as soon as the hunting starts to get better and this will quickly obliterate any gains made from limiting NR.

I can not for the life of me figure out how the proposal favors NR and Outfitters,
First the rut negates any advantage of preseason scouting and accumulating years worth of boots on the ground knowledge of the place you are hunting. Residents have a big advantage when it comes to boots on the ground scouting. Hunting the rut shifts success from those that work hard to those that just get lucky. This puts NR on a more even playing field with residents. We all like getting lucky, but the rut is lucky like matching the numbers in the lottery and running up to Helena and finding out 150,000 other people also matched all the numbers.
I can not figure out how this would help outfitters. Most of the opposition I hear is from outfitter that have quickly figured out that mule deer will not be down out of the mountains on there leases during the season. Outfitters that count on bucks that come down out of the hills in eastern Montana to rut on hay fields and creek bottoms would be crushed. Maybe NR that could no longer count on easy success during the rut would be forced to hire an outfitter. That must be it.
I would like some better details on how this is helping NR and outfitters.

 

[Ought Six]

Antler radar all your proposal is doing is this. Moving otc mule deer to October. Yes like 10 percent of mule deer bucks probably survive. It doesn't cut the amount of hunting pressure on the animals. Making it worse. Still all the resident and non resident tags. And like u said probably alot more people will buy deer tags. Because you guys are selling it like it's the new Wyoming by having a general October season. Not going to be the case.

It helps outfitters because it's the same system as if right now, for non residents to get tags. Mt just selling them. And most outfitters I know have a shit ton of land locked up, land locked, and probably more to follow as time goes by.

The biggest issue is a shit ton of elk going to flood the private. With all that pressure in October. Gaurenteed all the outfitters in western mt love this proposal. Drive through blacktail, Madison range, horse prairie, Dell area, anywhere there's large private land after the general opener as of right now. A shit ton of elk on private.

Where do the elk go in your neck of the woods with all the deer hunters on public.

Curious where you get this 10% survival of bucks number you keep referencing.

I hunt hard in the last couple weeks of October every single year in some great mule deer country where I know what most of the bucks are from scouting and/or archery season, and most years, it can be difficult to even see a buck that time of the year, and I know they are there. I can’t tell you the number of days after a huge loop, 9-10 miles, that ended in seeing less than 5 deer and the one buck being a forky or 3-pt.

Throw in a snowstorm and cold weather, however, especially as you get into November, and the hills become alive with deer that you didn’t even know were there.

I’d venture to say, in my anecdotal experience, if 10% was the correct value, that it would be only 10% would get killed, not the other way around that only 10% would survive. I’m sure the number would lie somewhere in between those 2 extremes however.

 

[cgasner1]

Antler radar all your proposal is doing is this. Moving otc mule deer to October. Yes like 10 percent of mule deer bucks probably survive. It doesn't cut the amount of hunting pressure on the animals. Making it worse. Still all the resident and non resident tags. And like u said probably alot more people will buy deer tags. Because you guys are selling it like it's the new Wyoming by having a general October season. Not going to be the case.

It helps outfitters because it's the same system as if right now, for non residents to get tags. Mt just selling them. And most outfitters I know have a shit ton of land locked up, land locked, and probably more to follow as time goes by.

The biggest issue is a shit ton of elk going to flood the private. With all that pressure in October. Gaurenteed all the outfitters in western mt love this proposal. Drive through blacktail, Madison range, horse prairie, Dell area, anywhere there's large private land after the general opener as of right now. A shit ton of elk on private.

Where do the elk go in your neck of the woods with all the deer hunters on public.

If I ever had the rifle tag in his area again I wouldn’t get serious till the last week of season. The year I had it I hunted 21 days straight looking for a bull and the hunting got better as the season progressed. I imagine if all the mule deer hunters had already cleared out it would have been even better

 

[8andcounting]

I am all for putting some limits on NR in 6&7, but anyone that thinks that any meaningful changes to mule deer will happen by mainly putting limits on NR has rose colored glasses. Only 40% of residents have bought a deer A tag every year for the past five years. 60% have skipped at least one year out of the last five years. That 60% is a huge pool of hunters that will start buying more tags as soon as the hunting starts to get better and this will quickly obliterate any gains made from limiting NR.

I can not for the life of me figure out how the proposal favors NR and Outfitters,
First the rut negates any advantage of preseason scouting and accumulating years worth of boots on the ground knowledge of the place you are hunting. Residents have a big advantage when it comes to boots on the ground scouting. Hunting the rut shifts success from those that work hard to those that just get lucky. This puts NR on a more even playing field with residents. We all like getting lucky, but the rut is lucky like matching the numbers in the lottery and running up to Helena and finding out 150,000 other people also matched all the numbers.
I can not figure out how this would help outfitters. Most of the opposition I hear is from outfitter that have quickly figured out that mule deer will not be down out of the mountains on there leases during the season. Outfitters that count on bucks that come down out of the hills in eastern Montana to rut on hay fields and creek bottoms would be crushed. Maybe NR that could no longer count on easy success during the rut would be forced to hire an outfitter. That must be it.
I would like some better details on how this is helping NR and outfitters.

This is the best most honest post in this thread . Totally agree

 

[8andcounting]

If I ever had the rifle tag in his area again I wouldn’t get serious till the last week of season. The year I had it I hunted 21 days straight looking for a bull and the hunting got better as the season progressed. I imagine if all the mule deer hunters had already cleared out it would have been even better

The HD I drew my LE bull permit in this year went to LE deer this year , this makes me very happy should be less hunters around .

 

[Treeshark]

I would like some better details on how this is helping NR and outfitters.

Great points as usual, @antlerradar. I would contend that the group’s proposal indeed does help NRs and outfitters, in the same way it helps MT resident hunters- by virtue of making mule deer hunting better and more sustainable for everyone involved.

 

[brockel]

The HD I drew my LE bull permit in this year went to LE deer this year , this makes me very happy should be less hunters around .

They also dialed back the cow tags in that area

 

[antlerradar]

I know many are questioning the reasoning for this proposal. Montana has long prided itself on opportunity, over the counter tags, and freedom of movement around the state. What is not to like about that? The problem is that this opportunity requires a management strategy that relies on the Law of Diminishing Returns working. Currently the Law of Diminishing Returns is not working. We have two choices going forward. Find ways to make the Law of Diminishing Returns work better or go to a system based on limited entry.
There are two big reasons why the Law of Diminishing Returns is failing. The first is access. When access is restricted hunters just move from one over hunted place to another. The deer never get the break in hunting pressure they need to recover. We can all wish for better access and I am all for better access programs, but even with all the effort and money pored into access in the last 40 years at best the progress has been one step forward and two steps back. With this proposal instead of trying to get access to places we likely never will, we change the season to when more of the bucks are on land we already have access to. The Law of Diminishing Returns will work better with better access to deer.
The second reason the Law of Diminishing Returns fails is when you have multiple species and OTC tags, The species that is thriving will keep people hunting and the species that is struggling will never get the break it needs. By separating mule deer from elk and whitetail we eliminate that flaw in the Law of Diminishing Returns. Does anyone think that people would be hunting the Gallatin if all they had was a mule deer tag in their pocket. paging the @The Hedgehog.
If anyone has a better idea to make the Law of Diminishing Returns work better, I am all ears. If not jump on the Shed God train and get it moving. I will be happy to jump on too if you can get any momentum.

 

[shoots-straight]

Until you show up in Helena with pitch forks at the ready, the people in charge will not grow deer populations like you're thinking. Not going to happen!

 

[Rie Bread]

. Does any one think that people would be hunting the Gallatin if all they had was a mule deer tag in their pocket. paging the @The Hedgehog.
If any one has a better idea to make the law of diminishing returns work better, I am all ears. if not jump on the Shed God train and git is moving. I will be happy to jump on to if you can get any momentum.

I hunt the gallatin every year. I don’t see the change in season limiting me in anyway. I look forward to being up high in mid October.

I’m just worried the pick your region is gonna back fire in terms of pressure on the reg6/7 deer. What are your thoughts about that being from that area? The season change gonna be enough for region 6/7?

 

[cgasner1]

I hunt the gallatin every year. I don’t see the change in season limiting me in anyway. I look forward to being up high in mid October.

I’m just worried the pick your region is gonna back fire in terms of pressure on the reg6/7 deer. What are your thoughts about that being from that area? The season change gonna be enough for region 6/7?

How can it people can already hunt it as much as they want? It can only really make a better change when people have to make a choice