Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[John B. Sullivan III]

Funny you still insist on calling it a “perceived” problem. What you “know” is not so accurate. If my kids want to “hunt” they absolutely will hunt and have plenty of opportunity. It doesn’t mean they need to hunt mule deer in November every year or for a few months essentially state wide. What a crock. We’re hunting this weekend. Plenty of “opportunity” for kids to hunt, but for any level of quality for mule deer - Not So Much for kids, adults, or especially anybody hunting on public land.

My kids have hunted mule deer in Montana.
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Those are great mule deer bucks, surely great memories, and clearly your kids are great hunters. I'm genuinely happy for you and your kids.

As you wrote, your kids drew on 1% chances as a party. LE will only diminish those odds. If MD go LE statewide other resident kids will not have those same opportunities your kids had, and those opportunities are important for young hunters.

I used the word perceived on purpose. Montana does not have the data we need to make the best decision. Therefore, in my opinion, the proposed solutions are also lacking, my ideas included. In the end, I place priority for residents over nonresidents. I'd prefer to not make rash decisions that harm Montana residents before we address the NR pressure we all know is real. Incremental changes, test and evaluate.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Those are great mule deer bucks, surely great memories, and clearly your kids are great hunters. I'm genuinely happy for you and your kids.

As you wrote, your kids drew on 1% chances as a party. LE will only diminish those odds. If MD go LE statewide other resident kids will not have those same opportunities your kids had, and those opportunities are important for young hunters.

I used the word perceived on purpose. Montana does not have the data we need to make the best decision. Therefore, in my opinion, the proposed solutions are also lacking, my ideas included. In the end, I place priority for residents over nonresidents. I'd prefer to not make rash decisions that harm Montana residents before we address the NR pressure we all know is real. Incremental changes, test and evaluate.

It’s perceived MT MD could be better and more than tiny changes are needed to make that a reality.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Looks like somebody was drinking IPAs and doing some late night ranting on hunttalk to me.

 

[cgasner1]

Looks like somebody was drinking IPAs and doing some late night ranting on hunttalk to me.

It was all political talking points hoping to get a rise out of someone.

Non residents
Money
No data

Are we supposed to sit on our thumbs for the next 10 years and gather data or maybe take a peek at what some of our neighbors are doing to help manage the issues. We really need less politics in wildlife.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Over the course of this thread and in several other instances, I have heard folks referring to the Madison mule deer herd having the highest spring count in 20 years as a counterpoint to observations that mule deer in MT are on an overall downward trajectory. Most times I have heard it has been combined with an objection to reducing hunter “opportunity” and seem at least to me to be suggesting that we don’t have enough information to justify reducing hunting pressure and that deer could just rebound on their own.

When I received the Madison counts and flight reports that regional biologist Julie Cunningham released publicly, several things immediately stood out to me that I believe are relevant.

First of all, this area had one of the wettest summers in recent history in ‘23 and we had an extremely mild winter this year. Environmental conditions of the habitat and weather were optimal.

Secondly, the majority of these deer live in either the wilderness or on large private ranches and are not easily accessible for hunting by the general public during rifle season except for limited trail heads along the Madison front.

We all know that good habitat and good weather are two of the most significant factors for recovery of local mule deer populations but I can’t help but conclude that the limitations to intense hunting pressure that are provided by the difficulty of distance, terrain, and private land lend themselves to giving herds that are depressed the ability to rebound quickly.

Folks who get excited about these high counts and decide to head to this unit to hunt deer this fall will still have to concentrate access at those limited entry points.

I can only imagine what would happen if region 6 or 7 that has far more roaded areas and access to mule deer unit wide would report the best deer counts in 20 years.

 

[DFS]

Mr. DFS

it's hard to take you seriously because another anonymous person making poor assumptions. I never said opportunity at all cost. Yes, let's continue.

Coffee guys usually show up at 9:30 AM 701 Main Street in miles city. I’m not hard to find. I assumed a certain group wouldn’t support taking the boot off the throat of mule deer, it appears I’m right.

 

[8andcounting]

FWP is more concerned with

Coffee guys usually show up at 9:30 AM 701 Main Street in miles city. I’m not hard to find. I assumed a certain group wouldn’t support taking the boot off the throat of mule deer, it appears I’m right.

9:30 coffee why so late ? lol

 

[DFS]

FWP is more concerned with

9:30 coffee why so late ? lol

It’s what the old guys do. Unfortunately the group is aging out and dwindling.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Coffee guys usually show up at 9:30 AM 701 Main Street in miles city. I’m not hard to find. I assumed a certain group wouldn’t support taking the boot off the throat of mule deer, it appears I’m right.

His ghost writer may be more inclined to a pint night than coffee with the grumpy old men.

 

[SwaggyD]

You'd be wise to listen to the Hedgehog

This is a statement I never thought I would ever read...... in my entire life. Probably sig worthy.

 

[John B. Sullivan III]

It’s perceived MT MD could be better and more than tiny changes are needed to make that a reality.

I agree, Montana certainly could be better. What you perceive as tiny change may seem like large change to others. Supportive data showing the need for a certain change and forecasting potential outcome can help bridge that gap. Personally, I would look at limit NRs before accepting generational loss of hunting opportunities for residents. I don't think that is a radical position.

 

[John B. Sullivan III]

Coffee guys usually show up at 9:30 AM 701 Main Street in miles city. I’m not hard to find. I assumed a certain group wouldn’t support taking the boot off the throat of mule deer, it appears I’m right.

I am not here representing any group, just myself as a concerned resident hunter.

 

[John B. Sullivan III]

Looks like somebody was drinking IPAs and doing some late night ranting on hunttalk to me.

Bourbon. IPAs are for children.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Bourbon. IPAs are for children.

I was the IPA ranter.

 

[John B. Sullivan III]

I was the IPA ranter.

Haha, gotcha. Well, I enjoyed the late night discussion while I was sipping bourbon. You know my thoughts... Im not opposed to changes but I'd prefer to begin by reducing pressure by limiting NRs, implementing incremental changes to residents, collect good data, test and evaluate to make best decisions for opportunity, experience and herd health... I gotta get back to work.

 

[mtmiller]

I am not here representing any group, just myself as a concerned resident hunter.

Could you share the thoughts of the Montana organization you chair? I wasn't able to find it on the website. Will they be weighing in on mule deer management in MT?

BTW, I am a member and very curious.

 

[John B. Sullivan III]

Could you share the thoughts of the Montana organization you chair? I wasn't able to find it on the website. Will they be weighing in on mule deer management in MT?

BTW, I am a member and very curious.

Montana Chapter of BHA has no position. We've not seen an official proposal from FW Commission to review. The org is very unlikely to weigh in on specific details of MD management like tag allocation unless there is a major violation of the NAMWM. Org participation in MD management would likely be limited to supporting habitat improvement, new access, etc. (core stuff within our mission). Good questions and thank you for being a member!

I am not representing the organization when I post to HT. If I ever do, I will make it very clear.

 

[Treeshark]

I am not representing the organization when I post to HT.

I’m not sure it works that way.

 

[SAJ-99]

Folks who get excited about these high counts and decide to head to this unit to hunt deer this fall will still have to concentrate access at those limited entry points.

That is great data. Thanks. Keeping in mind it is a single data point, the count looks pretty much "on trend". Also, the counts pre 2008ish all have much higher adult counts. Some of that decline in deer may be due to loss of good habitat over the last 25 years in the valley. It's a sad story repeated in a lot of units.

 

[cgasner1]

I’m not sure it works that way.

We also have people in our group that sit on other boards when we are working on issues with this they represent themselves and not the other groups they may be a member of. I do get what you are talking about because by using the talking points it has blurred the lines which makes it appear as he is trying for both. As this moves forward I really hope no one gets pist off at any of these conversations groups in the state if they oppose or support us. They are doing what they think is best for their membership. Most the people in these groups are volunteering and give up a lot of time and money to try and better the state even if we don’t see eye to eye on it. It’s always a good use of time and money to give something to any of them. YMMV on what group you like.