Losses at the Forest Service

[Deleted member 52937]

In the 1990s our USFS lands received about 120 million annual visits. Today we are approaching 170 million.

There are now less than half as many trail and forestry technicians as there were in 1992 in the USFS.

If the quality of your public lands experience is not what it once was, there may be many reasons behind it, but one is not in doubt.

How many acres of land did we have back then vs now. Is it more efficient to outsource some of the efforts, range management, fire management, trail maintenance, ect to 3rd party contractors? There’s many ways to redistribute labor and funds to accomplish the same amount of work Idk, it’s an interesting stat but I’d image per capita workers/public land fluctuates based on the number of projects each year.

My mind also goes to the Industrial Revolution efficiency/innovation. and what it did to farmers/farmable acres. I’m not discrediting your comment just interested to discuss some of the detailed insights people might have. Same goes for a lot of manufacturing getting displaced with automation and more skilled roles or higher paying jobs. Drone surveying vs manual, ect., ect.

 

[ismith]

My wife and I just went to DQ for blizzards.

I miss the diabetic shock (nerds) blizzard. Probably couldn’t eat one now though anyways.

 

[texwest44]

How many acres of land did we have back then vs now. Is it more efficient to outsource some of the efforts, range management, fire management, trail maintenance, ect to 3rd party contractors? There’s many ways to redistribute labor and funds to accomplish the same amount of work Idk, it’s an interesting stat but I’d image per capita workers/public land fluctuates based on the number of projects each year.

My mind also goes to the Industrial Revolution efficiency/innovation. and what it did to farmers/farmable acres. I’m not discrediting your comment just interested to discuss some of the detailed insights people might have. Same goes for a lot of manufacturing getting displaced with automation and more skilled roles or higher paying jobs. Drone surveying vs manual, ect., ect.

Which costs more - GS-4 maintenance people or fleets of private contractors? Lets not kid ourselves.

The industrial revolution gave us a seriously mixed bag for the world of agriculture. We got bigger yields off the land, but we also got the dust bowl, the massive loss of small family farms, and almost total reliance on bank/government loans for those small farms that remain. The Grapes of Wrath wasn't just made up off the top of Steinbeck's head.

 

[Doublecluck]

I miss the diabetic shock (nerds) blizzard. Probably couldn’t eat one now though anyways.

I remember back when I was a teen DQ had a blueberry blizzard made with fresh blueberries and blueberry syrup. That was good stuff.

 

[Deleted member 52937]

Which costs more - GS-4 maintenance people or fleets of private contractors? Lets not kid ourselves.

The industrial revolution gave us a seriously mixed bag for the world of agriculture. We got bigger yields off the land, but we also got the dust bowl, the massive loss of small family farms, and almost total reliance on bank/government loans for those small farms that remain. The Grapes of Wrath wasn't just made up off the top of Steinbeck's head.

I’m not kidding myself. Look at the governments cost to send stuff to orbit vs. SpaceX. Innovation can bring down prices significantly to the point it often makes sense to contract work out. Sure maybe trail building is a bad example but that’s probably a very small % of the work being done by the USFS.

My question was directed at the stats @Nameless Range posted about demand on public land has gone up 42% in the last 35 years but the work force is half. I think the same could go for a lot of industry.

It brings up a lot of questions in my head. We used to build houses with hammers and nails. Now we use cordless nail guns and even pre fabricated walls. Production/man hour goes up with innovation. Same with self checkout at the grocery store. I’d imagine you reach a saturation of trails/acre at some point and that turns into more of a maintenance/sustainability effort.

Just looking for insight from industry people on the topic cause the stats can be misleading when looked at from a 50k ft. view.

 

[Bonasababy]

I’m not kidding myself. Look at the governments cost to send stuff to orbit vs. SpaceX. Innovation can bring down prices significantly to the point it often makes sense to contract work out. Sure maybe trail building is a bad example but that’s probably a very small % of the work being done by the USFS.

My question was directed at the stats @Nameless Range posted about demand on public land has gone up 42% in the last 35 years but the work force is half. I think the same could go for a lot of industry.

It brings up a lot of questions in my head. We used to build houses with hammers and nails. Now we use cordless nail guns and even pre fabricated walls. Production/man hour goes up with innovation. Why about the dreaded self checkout at the grocery store. I’d imagine you reach a saturation of trails/acre at some point and that turns into more of a maintenance/sustainability effort.

Just looking for insight from industry people on the topic cause the stats can be misleading when looked at from a 50k ft. view.

Huh?

Natural resource management is people and labor intensive--not analogous to industry or business where machines, AI, etc. can replace people at all.

Just heard they are targeting thousands of layoffs at the IRS next. That agency has been woefully understaffed for years. An effort to increase staff to go after tax cheats --where the recoveries would have more than paid for the cost of the new staff, many times over--has been killed by republicans a number of times lately.

Might be a good year to get your tax return done--yesterday--if you have any money coming back who knows when it will be processed now!

 

[Bonasababy]

Locked before midnight.

Didn't get your wish eh?

 

[Deleted member 52937]

Huh?

Natural resource management is people and labor intensive--not analogous to industry or business where machines, AI, etc. can replace people at all.

Just heard they are targeting thousands of layoffs at the IRS next. That agency has been woefully understaffed for years. An effort to increase staff to go after tax cheats --where the recoveries would have more than paid for the cost of the new staff, many times over--has been killed by republicans a number of times lately.

Might be a good year to get your tax return done--yesterday--if you have any money coming back who knows when it will be processed now!

https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/out-and-about/automation-center-excellence-brings-efficiency

Never mind, I’ll just look into it myself.

 

[BourbonSnowCone]

When did Americans turn into such assholes? I don’t recognize what we’ve become anymore.

Forty years of vilifying public service, fair taxation, regulation, oversight, and consumer protection while pushing whatever new culture war suits a purpose. Attacks on educators and the value of education. And very few people push back.

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”
Lyndon Johnson

We deserve Trump.

 

[ScottP]

Absolutely terrible. My wife is a probationary employee at the VA. Just a waiting game right now, hopefully she'll get an exemption for being health care. Who knows.

I hope some of these people get their payback as a contractor and write their own checks at the expense of the agency who let them go.

Although technically it's the agency letting them go, this came from an executive order. It's happening across all departments and agencies of the govt, with exceptions for border security, military and public safety. I don't think I'd hold the newly minted ag secretary responsible for the firings at USDA

 

[ScottP]

FWIW google tells me there are 35k forest service employees nationwide, so though 3400 is a significant number, it is in reality less than 10%. I will say right now, if the least productive 10% of employees that work at my organization were let go, no less work would get done, in fact, maybe more work would get done. Just saying.

These were untargeted terminations. They have noting to do with whether the person was productive or not, just the pure fact that they were recently hired (typically <1yr) and in a probationary period. Easier to terminate without legal recourse for the employee.

 

[Hydrophilic]

Forty years of vilifying public service, fair taxation, regulation, oversight, and consumer protection while pushing whatever new culture war suits a purpose. Attacks on educators and the value of education. And very few people push back.

YEP
Being a patriot went from this (public service, regulation, consumer protection)



To 40+ years of this (privatize, deregulate, defund)

 

[RemingtonRules]

For those of you that voted for Trump....well...now you see what you caused...

Full send

 

[Sytes]

For those of you that voted for Trump....well...now you see what you caused...

I love the theatrics of such statements.

I agree and more so with those of us in the middle wondering How TF the Democrat leadership provided a platform and personality that actually LOST to such a person that America already experienced!?!?!

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

A few of you really need a primer on the size of the federal workforce since the 1950's. I say this because the claims you are making, while on-message, are wildly untrue.

I'll even help you out. Pay particular attention to the numbers since 2003, if you're interested in seeing where the majority growth has been lately. If you really want your mind blown, figure out which administration had the lowest fed workforce since the early 90's. (Caution: none of these actual facts may fit your narrative).

Executive Branch Civilian Employment Since 1940

Welcome to opm.gov

www.opm.gov

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I love the theatrics of such statements.

I agree and more so with those of us in the middle wondering How TF the Democrat leadership provided a platform and personality that actually LOST to such a person that America already experienced!?!?!

massive truth bomb and IMO the real problem. I've been saying this since 2015. The old saying "democrats fall in love, republicans fall in line" comes to mind far too often.

 

[RemingtonRules]

Didn't get your wish eh?

The fact that you waited around to post at midnight

 

[sccritterkiller]

Might be a good year to get your tax return done--yesterday--if you have any money coming back who knows when it will be processed now!

Redund?

I havent had a refund in over in 20 yrs. I know I am not alone. Have you ever though thats why some folks are fine with a RIF across the Gov?

 

[RemingtonRules]

That is what I said in my post and the vast majority of private companies

I know of plenty of private companies with 8 figure revenue and 7 to 8 figure debt or LOCs and they are not required to get financial statement audits. They also don't have non-owners on boards and owners typically have free rein over their comp. And even if they have a financial statement audit is much different and there is no transparency with outsiders or employees.

Don’t think I did not catch how you went from talking companies greater than $100mm to now 8 figures $10mm. I was not referring to small businesses and neither were you until your story did not fit.

 

[shb]

I took a lap around the rocky mountains last sept. From the great plains, to CO westslope, up through the parks, to MT, and back to the great plains.

I drove by a lot of FS camp grounds. Almost everyone had the gates closed, and signs up:

"Campground Closed"


I thought that odd during hunting season.