Losses at the Forest Service

[Forkyfinder]

How many acres of land did we have back then vs now. Is it more efficient to outsource some of the efforts, range management, fire management, trail maintenance, ect to 3rd party contractors? There’s many ways to redistribute labor and funds to accomplish the same amount of work Idk, it’s an interesting stat but I’d image per capita workers/public land fluctuates based on the number of projects each year.

My mind also goes to the Industrial Revolution efficiency/innovation. and what it did to farmers/farmable acres. I’m not discrediting your comment just interested to discuss some of the detailed insights people might have. Same goes for a lot of manufacturing getting displaced with automation and more skilled roles or higher paying jobs. Drone surveying vs manual, ect., ect.

Is this how people in ohio do calorie math?

It shows.

 

[Bigjay73]

I took a lap around the rocky mountains last sept. From the great plains, to CO westslope, up through the parks, to MT, and back to the great plains.

I drove by a lot of FS camp grounds. Almost everyone had the gates closed, and signs up:

"Campground Closed"


I thought that odd during hunting season.

That's just seasonal closings. I may be wrong, but I think many sites close at a specific date, not when winter actually hits.

 

[marksjeep]

A lot of the FS campgrounds close after labor day. The hosts (contractors) pull out and head back to Az or Fl.

2300 at DOI yesterday.

@Justabirdwatcher interesting table.

 

[Nameless Range]

How many acres of land did we have back then vs now. Is it more efficient to outsource some of the efforts, range management, fire management, trail maintenance, ect to 3rd party contractors? There’s many ways to redistribute labor and funds to accomplish the same amount of work Idk, it’s an interesting stat but I’d image per capita workers/public land fluctuates based on the number of projects each year.

I would wager acres were less acres back then. Public land is not really being sold, but is being added to occasionally in small chunks. Acres aren’t what I would focus on though, because managing the resource for people, and those people‘s impact, is where resource constraints kick in. And that has skyrocketed.

There’s things where contracting and outsourcing makes sense, and some things it doesn’t. The USFS already outsources/contracts lots of work. In my experience locally, there’s not even enough staff to plan those efforts much less get them done.

Earlier I wrote about the fact that a few million acres behind my house has no travel planning. It’s become such an issue that the commissioners of my county and adjacent counties, law-enforcement, search and rescue - they’ve been dogging the B-D for years to get it done - written official letters, bring it up multiple times a year. Things like a multi year effort of Public meetings, the incorporation of public input, being the authority on both non-motorized and motorized travel in your forest - that would not be appropriate to contract out.

I work in IT. I’ve seen contracting save money and I’ve seen it rape the taxpayer. It just depends on the project and task at hand.

I’d rather the agencies charged with managing where the elk in my freezer came from and where the grounding of my soul occurs , be robust. That doesn’t mean they can’t be too big, but I haven’t seen any evidence that the USFS is, and my personal experiences being involved locally tell me it’s not.

 

[BuzzH]

I wonder how many NFs will just use the skeleton crews and funding they have to install and lock gates right at the highways?

Those that think nothing gets done and the agency is over staffed and bloated can learn to walk.

Management costs money and takes people, when they decide to start allowing management unlock the gates. Until then, walk from the highway.

I wouldn't clear a single mile of trail or open a single FS campground either. I'd hang signs that said something to the effect of due to staffing and funding shortfalls we can't complete the work. Fire crews would only work on the line for 8 hours and call it a day for the same reason. I mean, they're just lazy gov workers, why expect them to work more than 8 hours a day?

 

[RemingtonRules]

I wonder how many NFs will just use the skeleton crews and funding they have to install and lock gates right at the highways?

Those that think nothing gets done and the agency is over staffed and bloated.

Management costs money and takes people, when they decide to start allowing management unlock the gates. Until then, walk from the highway.

I wouldn't clear a single mile of trail or open a single FS campground either. I'd hang signs that said something to the effect of due to staffing and funding shortfalls we can't complete the work. Fire crews would only work on the line for 8 hours and call it a day for the same reason. I mean, they're just lazy gov workers, why expect them to work more than 8 hours a day?

Doing it for the love of the job.

 

[more_cowbell]

I wonder how many NFs will just use the skeleton crews and funding they have to install and lock gates right at the highways?

Those that think nothing gets done and the agency is over staffed and bloated.

Management costs money and takes people, when they decide to start allowing management unlock the gates. Until then, walk from the highway.

I wouldn't clear a single mile of trail or open a single FS campground either. I'd hang signs that said something to the effect of due to staffing and funding shortfalls we can't complete the work. Fire crews would only work on the line for 8 hours and call it a day for the same reason. I mean, they're just lazy gov workers, why expect them to work more than 8 hours a day?

People will just drive around the gates. That’s what they do already in NE OR on closed USFS roads.

For years USFS has already been too understaffed to put up any closed road signs, so it won’t matter.

 

[BuzzH]

People will just drive around the gates. That’s what they do already in NE OR on closed USFS roads.

For years USFS has already been too understaffed to put up any closed road signs, so it won’t matter.

Make the remaining staff FPO's and give them ticket books...by the case. I'm good with writing tickets all day.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

@Justabirdwatcher interesting table.

That table would lay waste to most critics arguments if only they were worried about facts. But when you live in make-believe-land, facts don't matter.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Make the remaining staff FPO's and give them ticket books...by the case.

Make FLETC Great Again!

 

[BuzzH]

Doing it for the love of the job.

The days of getting paid in scenic views and sunsets are over.

 

[Bonasababy]

The fact that you waited around to post at midnight

Just back from a run to the ER a few minutes before..

 

[more_cowbell]

Make the remaining staff FPO's and give them ticket books...by the case.

Wish they would but during hunting seasons I don’t usually see but maybe one USFS truck a few times if that, and no LEO. I think the USFS checks on the woodcutters.

County sheriff used to be contracted to enforce road closures at least during hunting seasons but haven’t seen one in years.

 

[Trial153]

All part of the plan. I am getting online for LO tags when they go on sale by the New owners.
$$$ is going to be the new majority stake holder. The grand plan!! It’s in the platform !! It may take a few years but it’s coming. Glad to be in my 40s!! Watching point creep do a drain circle ️

 

[INMT]

I took a lap around the rocky mountains last sept. From the great plains, to CO westslope, up through the parks, to MT, and back to the great plains.

I drove by a lot of FS camp grounds. Almost everyone had the gates closed, and signs up:

"Campground Closed"


I thought that odd during hunting season.

Seasonal staff can’t work over 1039 hours in a year. Most places hire them for an April-October season. Once your first seasonal hire for your work group begins, the 6 month clock is ticking. It’s not staggered for each employee’s start date.

So generally not many seasonals left to clean vault toilets and empty trash to keep campgrounds open.

 

[westbranch]

Read your post again:

You realize private companies are audited annually. They also have a Board that oversees executive comp. A CEO cannot declare their own raise. But the truth does not make for a good story.

Don’t think I did not catch how you went from talking companies greater than $100mm to now 8 figures $10mm. I was not referring to small businesses and neither were you until your story did not fit.

Your original post mentioned nothing the size of companies. Most businesses in the country are "small" businesses. The overwhelming majority of private companies are not audited annually. I read somewhere the truth does not make for a good story.

Just trying to avoid misinformation

 

[RemingtonRules]

The vast majority of private companies are closely held and while they may have external audits for some purposes the results of those audits are not public and many are not required to have audits. Based on numbers in 2024 87% of all companies with >100M of revenue are private.

Nice try. This was the start of our convo. Keep the receipts.

 

[Wildabeest]

A few of you really need a primer on the size of the federal workforce since the 1950's. I say this because the claims you are making, while on-message, are wildly untrue.

I'll even help you out. Pay particular attention to the numbers since 2003, if you're interested in seeing where the majority growth has been lately. If you really want your mind blown, figure out which administration had the lowest fed workforce since the early 90's. (Caution: none of these actual facts may fit your narrative).

Executive Branch Civilian Employment Since 1940

Welcome to opm.gov

www.opm.gov

Interesting. The biggest jump came when staffing up to prevent an autocratic tyrant from controlling the world .

 

[RemingtonRules]

Read your post again:





Your original post mentioned nothing the size of companies. Most businesses in the country are "small" businesses. The overwhelming majority of private companies are not audited annually. I read somewhere the truth does not make for a good story.

Just trying to avoid misinformation

See above. You just keep going for a bigger shovel.

 

[sapperJ24]

I took a lap around the rocky mountains last sept. From the great plains, to CO westslope, up through the parks, to MT, and back to the great plains.

I drove by a lot of FS camp grounds. Almost everyone had the gates closed, and signs up:

"Campground Closed"


I thought that odd during hunting season.

To add to other responses regarding the closures, in many forests this is due to restrictions in the contract set by the concessionaire that is managing the campground.

Often the concessionaire and forest determine a season (Memorial Day through Labor Day typically) for the campground, and once the season is past, the gate is swung shut.

The concessionaire keeps the vast majority (depends but around 80%+) of the site fees and gives about 10% back to the forest. The agency determined this was a better deal for the American people than paying a couple of GS4 seasonal employees.

If a concessionaire wants to make money off the campground, fine, I suppose, but I do not believe they should be able to lock people out after their official season.