If you pay $8000 for an Elk, is it a Trophy?

[Slydog]

I wonder just how well all the selfrightous individuals would do hunting on some of the " canned hunts" that I have been on and just how it would effect your opinyons. As far as there not being a need, how arrogant you are to think that because you don't need it that everyone is just like you. I take many handicaped hunters to ranches that provide them with opertunity that they will never get on public lands.
One of the reasons that there ain't much for opertunity is because most of the easy access areas are flooded with all you ethecal hunters in your pickups and dirt bikes..

Tell me realy is it the fence or the fact that you can't afford it that realy pi$$es you off.

Here are some facts for you.. 80% of high fence operations donate hunts to handicaped or life challenged hunters.

Your big CWD threat started in Colorado, not on a ranch or " Game Farm " but a Division of Wildlife research center and the spread of the desease was from distrabution from that center.

The lady from PA who shot a 333 7/8 sci bull at pine mountain ranch damn sure feels that it was a trophy and she is very proud of her harvest of that magnifisent animal and it may well be the only animal she ever gets to hunt. You want to degrade her accomplishment with your pompus, better than thou, attitude..

This is what is going to distroy our hunting heritage, this right here. The division of hunters,,, we are not hunters anymore, we are houndsmen, archers, trophy hunters, predator hunters, handgunners, blackpowder hunters, trappers, wingshooters, meat hunters, waterfowlers, upland game hunters, whitetail hunters, muledeer hunters, big game hunters and so on and so on.
When will we all learn that the bottom line is that we all are hunters. United we will stand but as devided as we are we are doomed. Hell we can't even agree that what the elk breeders assn is doing is a good thing. Its paying for equipment and gear to help get kids, who wouldn't learn our heratage without this help, into the field and hunting. Off the streets and into the woods.

We have here the finger pointers and the action takers. I'm an action taker, I make things happen, I help others to get involved. I actively seek out the next generation and show them the way.

Have you asked your self if you have done all that you can do? Does it realy matter if you shoot a stick and string or a compound bow, a sling shot or a 416 rigby. No I think not. what matters is that we all are hunters, as in anything there are better hunters than others and some need the help and opertunitys provided by such operations..

I know many people who posess great welth and have no hunting skills, does that mean they have no right to hunt and seek out any help they can get. As a pro guide for many years I met many people who had no buisness in the woods at all let alone carring a gun. without the help of a guide they would have died in the mountains of Colorado. Also without the help of a guide they would certainly not have killed elk, with someone doing all the work and all they had to do was pull the trigger, does that make their trophy any less a trophy??

I have killed many animals in my life, some easy and some hard but every one of them is a trophy to me and thats the bottom line. So as you pass judgment on people who don't hunt the same way that you do, ask your self what contributions you have put in the pot and what makes you better than anyone else.

Why can't we see the forest for the trees.

sly

 

[Oak]

Well, you bring up some interesting points, Slydog. I guess we're not going to get this post back on topic.

As for the topic of the original post: I would not consider an elk taken behind a fence as a trophy, whether by me or someone else. Whether something is a trophy or not is absolutely subjective, and for the shooter to decide for themselves. If that lady thinks of her 333 7/8 bull as a trophy, fine for her. I'm not morally obligated to agree with her.

As for the rest of your post, Slydog: I REALLY don't think you're listening to what I'm saying. I have a problem philisophically with elk being raised in captivity for hunting, meat, antlers, velvet, or any other way elk farmers have found to exploit the animals. It has to do with respect for the animals (and don't give me that load of crap elk farmers like to spew about captive elk living a better life than wild ones) and safety of wild herds.

That's pretty funny that you think I'm just jealous because I can't afford to shoot at one of those ranches!

Thanks for the chuckle. I can promise you right now that if I ever get to the point that a fenced elk is the only kind I'm able to shoot, I'll give up hunting them. And those that don't hunt game farms certainly don't need those that do to help defend hunting from the anti's. We'll do much better on our own, without that issue hanging over our heads. I agree with you that hunters should stick together, but shooting an animal behind a fence isn't hunting, and those of you who try to defend it as such are just kidding yourselves.

You may be correct about where CWD started, and it did spread from the facility to the surrounding area, but the endemic area around the research facility spread VERY slowly for 30 years. Then CWD suddenly jumped to places like Wisconsin and Saskatchewan and South Dakota. How do you explain that? At any rate, I would at least expect the elk farmers to do their part to help control the further spread of the disease, but we can't even count on them to do that.

Your statistic about 80% of high fence operations donating shoots to the handicapped is interesting. Pretty hard to believe, too. Do you mean 80% of all elk ranches, or 80% of shooting operations? I'd sure like to see where you got that statistic.

You talked about some other stuff that wasn't really relevant to the topic, like choice of weapons, using a guide, etc. I don't care at all about that stuff, as long as they aren't shooting game behind a fence.

Slydog, I think it's very admirable that you take the time to introduce others to the sport, and to help those less fortunate than the rest of us. More of us should be doing it. However, using it as a defense for game farms doesn't fly. The bads associated with them far outweigh the goods. There's plenty of other ways of getting those folks involved without game farms. A person in a wheelchair could have killed the cow elk I killed last month on public land.

If any of you don't still don't understand how I can feel this way about game farms, you never will. It has to do with respect for the animals, captive and wild. If you don't feel it, you just don't.

Hmm, looking back at the replies, it looks like only three, or maybe four (not exactly sure about Elkgunner

) folks here are completely against game farms. I would have expected it to be higher.

Oak

 

[A-con]

Stop beating around the bush OAK, how do you really feel ?

Words like "Game Farm" are thrown around like they all the same, when every one is different. A thirty thousand acre "ranch" with mountians & trees is a lot different that a two hundred pasture. A truly wild animal is a lot different than one that feeds out of a trough and likes to have his ears scrached !
I'm going to start a new thread, any one want to play ?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-17-2004 01:57: Message edited by: Anaconda ]</font>

 

[The Hedgehog]

Slydog can you do me a favor since you are an action taker and you can make things happen...

Please go to the Mustang Ranch and coordinate a donated piece of ass to the handicapped. I'll park in front of the blue sign out front and walk in with a limp.

That would be a fun story to tell, so would going on a canned hunt, pretending to be some sympathy sponge that needed to pull the trigger on some tame and captive animal.

In either case, I wouldn't bring the hooker home to meet my mom, and I wouldn't hang any game farm taken animal in my house as a trophy.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Greenhorn,

But if he were to arrange for TWO of them gals from the Bordello, you would be bragging about that event, wouldn't you???

Oak,
I don't see any need to further clarify my position, as I am admanatly against Bowling.

I don't like wearing other people's shoes to play a game. And furthermore, Oak, there is nothing I could add to your comments, as I agree 1000000% with you, and you are doing a fine job of making the High Fence supporters look bad.

The comment that really pointed out the shallow, lazy, "I hope they can't reproduce" nature of the High Fence gang was this one: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> They don't just drop the elk off the day before the hunt and one other point I would like to make, How many hunters spend a couple grand every year hunting elk and never even see a bull. After a few years of that "SHAZAMMM" you have 8,000 invested and don't have anything to show for your time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For the author of that comment to think that if you did not kill anything, you had nothing to show for your time and $8000. For it to be implied, that for some reason, we as hunters need to show 54 little white packages of meat in the freezer, and one more set of raghorn antlers in the garage. I am sorry, but that is one of the least ethical hunting statements I have ever heard. It bothers me that the author of that statement is somehow influencing young hunters to that un-ethical thinking.

I did not kill an elk this year, but I have tons to show for my hunt. I had some gorgeous sunrises, watched while sitting on a rock glassing 16 cows and a Spike, bears and bulls. I saw some outstanding Mulies, and had them walking all around me. I drank beer with some of the few people in the world you can really count on to help you pack a 1/4 or share their last Dollar. I told stories around a stove in a tent.

I assure you, my hunt of not killing something was far more memorable than any High Fence operation for Elk could be.

I will have to defer to the Montana Boys, and take their word that the Hookers are not as rewarding as the free-ranging bar flies...

And as far as the "United We Stand" bullChit, that is ridiculous. I don't need to go stand shoulder to shoulder with some un-ethical, fat-assed, High Fenced hunter any more than I need to support Legalized Prostitution. I have Morals and Ethics, and I don't even consider them to be that High, but they are high enough to know that shooting an Elk behind a fence is wrong.

And Sly, I assure you I could drop $8000 on any hunt I want, but there is no way in Hell I will ever pay to hunt an Elk behind a fence in Idaho. And if I keep seeing this kind of crap going on, there will be some Legislators in Idaho who start getting the idea of banning Game Farms in this state. At the current time, I think there are more pressing issues in Idaho (funding for Schools) to address via the Legislature, but the time will come, and the game farms will be gone!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-17-2004 08:20: Message edited by: ElkGunner ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I will have to defer to the Montana Boys, and take their word that the Hookers are not as rewarding as the free-ranging bar flies...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!!

 

[The Hedgehog]

Slydog, I can't help but to comment on your post. I read it again, and it's downright hilarious.

"I wonder just how well all the selfrightous individuals would do hunting on some of the " canned hunts" that I have been on and just how it would effect your opinyons."
Please tell us about your game farm adventures in another thread so we can form our own "opinyons." I'm sure it will be entertaining to read in the least.

"I take many handicaped hunters to ranches that provide them with opertunity that they will never get on public lands.
One of the reasons that there ain't much for opertunity is because most of the easy access areas are flooded with all you ethecal hunters in your pickups and dirt bikes.."
There are piles and piles of "opertunity" for easy big game without going to a game farm canned hunt. Disagreeing with me just means that you are uninformed or unaware.

"Tell me realy is it the fence or the fact that you can't afford it that realy pi$$es you off."
It doesn’t "piss" me off, because I distinctly remember helping vote this crap out in my state. Does it piss you off because so many of us find it amusing to ridicule it?

"Here are some facts for you.. 80% of high fence operations donate hunts to handicaped or life challenged hunters."
Not that I think you are a blowhard, but where did you get that "fact?" Share the hidden details. Really though you should be proud. I would take similar pride in taking a handicapped or life-challenged person to a brothel. It would equally make them feel good about themselves, especially if you got it on video tape.

"The lady from PA who shot a 333 7/8 sci bull at pine mountain ranch damn sure feels that it was a trophy and she is very proud of her harvest of that magnifisent animal and it may well be the only animal she ever gets to hunt. You want to degrade her accomplishment with your pompus, better than thou, attitude.."
First off, SCI scores stand for "Shooting Conditions Inappropriate" so don’t bother listing it. Secondly, it’s not ladylike to shoot a game farm elk. Admit it, she’s a hooker in disguise. And there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s a "magnifisent" thing actually.

"I actively seek out the next generation and show them the way."
So does Michael Jackson.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-17-2004 11:02: Message edited by: Greenhorn ]</font>

 

[Delw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"I actively seek out the next generation and show them the way."
So does Michael Jackson.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ROTFLMFAO Thats a good one greeny.
Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

Greenhorn, you never answered if you would be proud of TWO Hookers!!

I find it interesting that somebody with Breast Cancer is so selfish as to think that they want to go ride around in a pick-up shooting tame Elk out of the window, just to feel that their life had some meaning. I have seen more than one woman die of Breast Cancer, and I assure you, not a single one of them was worried about fullfilling some dream of killing Elk in a corral from the pick-up. Most have been so worried about their kids, husbands and their grandkids they were leaving behind, the thought of killing one of God's creatures was not on their radar. When they were healthy enough between Chemo sessions, killin' Chit was not on the list of things to do.

I would guess, the closer One gets to death, the more they value life, and needlessly killing Elk in a Corrall just so you can feel better about yourself would not be on One's list of things to do before I die.

To somehow romantacize the actions of people killing behind HIgh Fences as some sort of Ultimate Wish in life is merely an attempt by some to think their actions have meaning in an otherwise meaningless life.

S'pose they have Elk behind the Fence at Neverland????

 

[Washington Hunter]

Slydog, sorry I just don't agree...I think game farms, and the commercialization of wildlife, is what will destroy our hunting heritage. Our hunting heritage is based on the fact that ALL wildlife is publicly owned. Think about that. If elk farmers really cared about wildlife, and our hunting heritage, their ranches would not be high fenced, and wild elk would be there by their choice, if the habitat met their needs. A fence would not be necessary to keep them contained.

 

[SJ]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2004 03:44: Message edited by: SJ ]</font>

 

[pa mt man]

My secretary has breast cancer bad,she is not selfish, and whatever she said she wanted to do I would try to make it happen. don

 

[JoseCuervo]

Don,

Do you really think your Secretary's foremost concerns are her fullfilling some lifel long quest to shoot a 355 SCI Bull behind a fence? Or is she more concerned with making sure her kids are able to finish School, that she is able to patch up the relationship with her estranged Sister, and that her Husband knows she loves him?

And if she asked you for an $8000 favor, which do you think would be more likely, that she wants to go shoot an Elk behind a High Fence, or that she wants to make sure her kid's first year of College is paid for?

How much gratification can one get from killing an Elk behinda fence? Is it gratifying to write the check? Is it gratifying to have some "guide" open the gate so you can drive into the pasture? Is it gratifying to squeeze the trigger and topple the 3rd bull from the Left? Is it gratifying to turn the Bull's head, so the ear tag doesn't show up in the "grip and grin" picture? Is it gratifying to eat $40lb Elk Burger? Which part of the process gets these guys excited?

To me, on a real hunt, it is about sitting over maps in January, day dreaming and wondering. It is about working up a new load in Februrary for the rifle. It is talking to Biologists in March about Winter survival. It is about bear hunting (and kinda looking for Elk in April May). It is about running every day at noon to be in shape for hunting in the Fall. It is about Scouting in July with a 60lb pack, to start getting into shape for packing. It is swimming new places in rivers in August, in the low water, to see if that "hole" across the river really does have Elk. It is about September mornings of seeing leaves turn, and hearing reports from the stick hunters. And then it is October and November about hunting with people who would sell themselves out for me. It is about drinking cold beers next to a fire when you are too tired to cook. It is about sweating in the dark on your way up the ridge, two hours before daylight. It is about building a warming fire to see if you can get your fingers to work again. It is glassing Tan spots across a canyon, with no chance of getting a sneak on them. It is about telling stories about dumb ass mistakes that cost a bull. That is where the gratification comes from.

 

[Moosie]

SO.. the Tickets I bought in Greenhorns and Elkgunners Behalf.... HUmmmm.... I'm guessing they'll be pissed

 

[Oak]

Naw, they're just hoping to win second prize.

Oak

 

[muskrat89]

So, what about an island? A deer from Anticosti a trophy? There's probably ranches in Texas bigger than Anticosti Island...

So, don't push the wild game into a canyon or along a river, where they can't escape...?

I dunno...I've never been on one, but I get the impression that some are very challenging, some are wooded slaughter-houses. I am curious as to how many anti "canned hunt" people have actually been to one of these places...

I've been hunting State Trust land that has a fence....is that bad?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-18-2004 10:59: Message edited by: muskrat89 ]</font>

 

[The Hedgehog]

EG, as "magnifisent" as 2 hookers would be, I don't think I'd be proud. But I probably brag about it to a few pals.. now three hookers...

that's a whole different story!

Now that I've had some time to think about it, I guess I might be sortof proud of the game farm trophy. Actually, I've been very proud of some knarly boogers and turds... but I can't see hanging them around my house for a long period of time. The coolness sort of wears off after the first few minutes.

 

[beardown]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Washington Hunter:

I will have to defer to the Montana Boys, and take their word that the Hookers are not as rewarding as the free-ranging bar flies...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!!

....I dont know , the hooker was great cuz I only had to talk to her about how much, it was quick and only satisfing to me! But then again thats pretty much goes for the bar flies to, except I spend way more time and money chassing them!!!

 

[Michaelr]

Moosie says
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If the gripe is about how easy it is, then Ask yourself if you were on a late season deer hunt and was driving up to your hunting area, and a 30” buck came across the road and to legally take it all you had to do was shut off the truck, step of the road and pull the trigger, that you wouldn’t do it. I know DANG well I would. And..IT WOULD STILL BE MY TROPHY!!!

NO difference. NONE !! some people have 100’s of thousands of Dollars to throw around. I think most of the stuff I read is that “Even if I had” comments. That’s lame.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference here is that you don't know if a monster buck will run across the road. You don't know for sure there is even a buck in the area. On a game farm you know

To me a monster running across the road would just be extreemly good luck.
I probably still wouldn't put it on the wall.
maybe out in the garage

For me trophy means something earned. If I put all the effort and time into it and am succesful it is even more of a trophy.
Something from the game farm would be like Moosies expensive art......nice to look at but not particularly something to be proud about.

Slydog says

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#1 it's 1,500 acres. the enclosure is 1 1/2 miles wide and 2 1/4 miles long. its heavy forest and if you think its so damn easy to hunt a "" domesticated elk you are very foolish. I have seen this ranch first hand and its not a duck shoot. it's hard hunting and the elk are as spookie as any elk I have ever hunted on public or private lands.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I live here in I.F. I do know where this place is.
My family owns a ranch about the same size
I could cover the whole place in a morning hunt. I could drive it in 30 min.

They do have a place especially for disabled folks.
But to claim it is the same as regular hunting is ludicriss.

 

[Curly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colorado Oak:
Naw, they're just hoping to win second prize.

Oak<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good one.

Wow, you guys really have good debates. It has been some entertaining reading. I just found this site recently and I will definately check back in to see if these trophy elk debates continue.