If you pay $8000 for an Elk, is it a Trophy?

[Slydog]

To all the nay-sayers I would like to tell you a little about the ranch...

#1 it's 1,500 acres. the enclosure is 1 1/2 miles wide and 2 1/4 miles long. its heavy forest and if you think its so damn easy to hunt a "" domesticated elk you are very foolish. I have seen this ranch first hand and its not a duck shoot. it's hard hunting and the elk are as spookie as any elk I have ever hunted on public or private lands.

They don't just drop the elk off the day before the hunt and one other point I would like to make, How many hunters spend a couple grand every year hunting elk and never even see a bull. After a few years of that "SHAZAMMM" you have 8,000 invested and don't have anything to show for your time.

You can argue all day about ethics and whats right but I feel that untill you have hunted on this ranch and seen for your self what kind of hunting this is you are just like the blow hards who want to take away your rights to hunt,, " UNEDUCATED " and talking about things you know nothing about.

I have been there, I took a lady with brest cancer there on a "duck hunt" and very much to my suprize found it hard hunting and wondered if she would even see an elk. luckely we spotted an elk and this lady had to make a 319 yard shot to close the deal.
If you asked her I know what she would say to you and everyone else about high fence hunting.

Now, I also am a realist and know that some ranches fall into the catigory of "duck hunts" this is a shame and gives all high fence hunting a bad name but at some point the hunter has to take some responcibility for the choice he makes to hunt on the "duck hunts" ranches. I have hunted in Texas on a 501 acre highfence ranch in the hill country and found it to be more challenging than the public ground that I hunt in Idaho. Why you ask? well the deer know what their yard looks like and that camo blob wasn't there 3 hours ago, they are fed 20% proteen and are "amped" if you will. they are nervous and any movement will send them running.

You can say what you want and think what you will but if you have never hunted high fence, its just drivel.

I personaly thank GOD for high fence hunting because it gives those who aren't mountain men the chance to take home a trophy of a lifetime.. Not everyone posesses the ability to hunt as some of us do.

sorry to blow off but I couldn't take any more.

sly

 

[Nemont]

What if you pay $15,000 for a dall sheep hunt in Alaska, is that a trophy?

What if you paid $12,000 for an archery bull taken from a free ranging, non high fenced ranch, is it a trophy?

Some people, who hunt, have a lot of wealth to be able to afford such outlandish prices to kill animals. To us average Joes it would not be as satisfying as hunting hard and killing an animal we have spotted, stalked, dragged, butchered and consumed ourselves.
Doesn't mean these animals killed on these hunts are not trophies. Why? because trophies are in the eye of the beholder. It boils down to opinions. Doesn't matter if they are entered in any record book either.
The question was not if such activity is good or bad for hunting but is it a trophy or not.
If by some twist of fate and Pamela Anderson was blind(as well as deaf,dumb and couldn't smell) and just had to become my girlfriend I might think she was a trophy, My mother might be ashamed that I was with Pam because she made a porno video, posed nude, has hepatitis, has fake breast and dresses in skimpy outfits.
All the things that may make her a trophy for me may turn someone else completely off.

Just my opinion on the matter.
Nemont

 

[Moosie]

Nemont.. Fake boobs or not, I'd be Proud for ya

And, I'd be willing to help mount her for ya... Uhhhh... But, back on topic

 

[Fullabull]

I think most of us hunt because we love the outdoors and enjoy the challenge presented by the game that we seek. I would feel more proud of a spike bull or cow that I had to track and put a sneak on than any animal I could ever shoot behind a tall fence.

Not to put it down so much, everyone has a different idea of what a trophy is. For some it’s just something to show. For others, it’s an accomplishment.

Good Hunting

Fullabull

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Here in California, there are large (relatively speaking) populations of Tule Elk on large tracts of private land. None of them are available to the public to hunt, yet the landowners get tags to sell as they please in order to compensate them for letting the elk stay.

Many of these private holdings landlock large chunks of BLM land that the public cannot access, but which are game rich.

So, if you have $10,000 or more, you can hunt a free-ranging, wild tule elk. Not a "canned" hunt but certainly not the same as public land. Would that count as a "trophy" to the naysayers?

 

[A-con]

It would be a "trophy" to some people, but not to me.
Two guys go on "guided" elk hunts.
Guy #1 does what you said, 8K, high fence, wakes up a 8:30am, eggs benadict, truck ride to the grain field where he looks over twenty bulls and chooses to shoot a 370 class 7X7.
Guy #2 Goes on a wilderness pack in, rides horses fifteen miles, wakes up a 4am, then hikes another five miles, day after day for five days at ten thousand feet, and finally shoots a 280 class 5X6

Who has the "real" trophy ?
Who has the better memorys ?

The problem (?) is that guy #1 will hang that monster behind his desk and tell anyone who asks that he is a big time elk hunter.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-16-2004 00:50: Message edited by: Anaconda ]</font>

 

[Oak]

Ok, the question was, "Is it a trophy?" Not to me, but I guess that's to be decided by the person who shot it, according to Moosie's definition of a trophy.

Those of us who don't think shooting an animal behind a fence is really hunting are not going to change our minds about that. Slydog, personally I don't care if the ranch is 100,000 acres of the thickest lodgepole pine forest around, I wouldn't consider it hunting and I wouldn't consider an animal I killed within the fence to be a trophy. That's just the way it is for me. I can't make you understand it if you don't already feel it, and you'll never convince me otherwise. We're just beating a dead horse here...nobody's going to change any opinions.

Cali, the key to your question is "free-ranging." It doesn't matter what the land status is where the elk are, as long as they're free to go where they want.

You guys can go enjoy your canned shoots, but don't expect me to defend them in the court of public opinion. And you can bet your ass that if I ever have the chance to vote on it, I'll vote against ever allowing elk to be kept behind a fence as livestock or for shooting to the highest bidder.

Oak

 

[Washington Hunter]

What Oak said!

 

[Moosie]

Some people try to put in on a Late season BULL ELK hunt around here (Or deer). And, if you draw it, Being 100 BILLION miles of "FREE RANGE" deer or elk, there is an area you can go, Sit on a hill and Pick off trophy Critters all day.

I think it's a DAM shame they allow this to happen, Sounds to EASY to me !!!!! Sounds like it's a "CANNED" hunt without fences. I think Everyone should hunt 30 days a year and hike 12 miles a Day in order to call themselves hunters.

Otherwise, It's just shooting.

And sitting in a treestand, UHHH What are people thinking... they are cheating and this shouldn't be done.

Dogs ? Chasing deer with Dogs ? This should be Out lawed !!!!

Guys that use Cams on their bows ? YAHHH... not real hunters.

Guys that fish in Fishing ponds.... LOSERS !!!

Guys that Bait their hook or use barb's !!!! SHOOT me in the foot now !!!

 

[Washington Hunter]

Moosie, don't ya just love a good debate?

 

[mtmiller]

The question was, "Is it a Trophy". To me it would not be, but you shoot it; call it what you want.

I am going to hunt with Casey again this year for bear in Sask. He will bait for 6 weeks, set up a stand for me, drop me off and pick me up. If I shoot an 8'er, it won't be a trophy for me, but I would put him on the wall.

Now if I went to WY solo and initiated all the work and bagged a 6'er, then I would consider it a trophy to me. It would look pretty small on the wall next to the one Casey got for me (more of the truth in my opinion).

I would love to show them both off and I know which bear story I would rather tell.

My opinion, the size of the animal on the wall does not always define the ability of the hunter, but may give you an idea of what he has in the bank.

So if I ever ask you about the big elk hanging on your wall that you took from behind a high fence, at least have the courtesy to tell me it was a canned hunt and don't portray yourself as "The Great White Hunter".

Oh yeh, I also thought it would be cool to create a policy that if a critter was taken from behind a high fence that the antlers (depending on the critter) would have to be marked to show it. Let's see how many people want to through it up in the dead room to show it off then.

 

[kirkl]

I wouldnt pay for a canned hunt but if i did win one like the raffle on here i would shoot one and probly cut the horns off and hang them in the garage with my smaller horns that dont make it in the house and tell the story like it is, that is was a canned hunt and this is how it played out. or get it mounted for 700 bucks and turn around and sell it for 2-3k, those head mounts of big animals like that go for big bucks.

 

[Oak]

Oscar, I think you're missing the point. For me, it has nothing to do with how hard one hunts. It has to do with the animals being confined in a fence or not. Yesterday I hiked about 200 yards off the road before spotting a doe deer and killing it. That was more of a "hunt" to me than killing a 370 bull on a fenced 100,000 acre ranch. I think Miller's description of a trophy pretty much matches how I think. There shouldn't be any arguing about what is a "trophy" and what isn't, because it's a subjective question.

Oak

 

[BrianID]

To answer Washington Hunter's original question, I personally wouldn't consider an animal that is tame or hunted inside a small enclosure a trophy.

I think that large fenced properties, most landowner tags, governors’ tags or any animal that is “bought” are in the same category. They are sometimes challenging but for the most part the accomplishment isn’t the same as taking a spike on general season hunt on public land.

I like mtmiller's idea of "having a policy that if a critter was taken from behind a high fence that the antlers (depending on the critter) would have to be marked to show it."

I know of a game farm that is just getting started and it is taking away a huge chunk of winter range from wild animals. This is the number one reason I don't think there should be game farms in most places. I don’t think game farms should be outlawed but I do think that some of them should be shut down.

 

[Elkhunter]

A fish is contained by a fence called the shorline or land and therefore is not free, yet if you were in a lake and caught a new record Bass or Trout, from what I have read above, most of you would not consider it a trophy. If one was to hunt on an island where the fence was water intsead of wire, would it make a difference?

 

[BrianID]

Elkhunter,

Good point, that is like saying all elk in North America aren't free because they have a fence around them called the Ocean. LOL

 

[mtmiller]

Alright Elky now you are getting carried away.

Ten acre impoundment-catch a 15 pound bass-trophy-YES

Take 15 pound and put it in a barrel-hold him until he 20 pounds-charge a guy $20K to fish the barrel-trophy-NO

Man these off season conversations really blow.

 

[Erik in AK]

I don't care how big or small the high-fence enclosure is, hunting behind a fence is wrong and here's why:

(1) It undermines our image as a group to the public. Even for the big, ethically run places, PR is the issue.
(a). Fence "hunts" cater to those who are rich enough to be lazy. Its the natural extension of our American craving for instant gratification into hunting. They want the "trophy" and can afford to exchange dollars for effort.

(2) It helps further the increasing trend of pricing the public out of hunting.

I know all this hits a nerve with Moosie, who has frequented such operations. If you go to a game ranch, are you a dirt bag? No, not necessarily. Some guys really want a spanish goat. The better game ranches provide legitimate opportunity at species not normally or widely available. You could spend ten thousand dollars to go to Africa for Blackbuck, Nilgai and Aoudad or a few hundred to go to Texas for the same species under nearly identical circumstances.

But elk are different. Elk are widespread in good numbers in virtually every western state. Plenty of fair-chase or legitimate (or whatever you want to call it) opportunity for elk exists all across the country. Elk ranch hunts are not needed and are too easily used to turn public sentiment against hunting and hunters in general. I know there are good operations out there but since its the bad ones that get all the press there will be no distinction between them in the voting booth. They have to go.

Final thought--since game meat cannot be sold, elk ranching to meet public demand for elk meat is ok IMO.

JM2C

 

[Silent But Deadly]

I'm telling you, it's just like buying a hooker.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it.

 

[Steiny]

Interesting responses. I've seen folks that supported high fence hunts literally get ripped to shreds on other forums.

I'm in agreement with the crowd that say's ...... It's your time and money, do whatever you like with it.

Hey, if you buy a hot honey from the Mustang Ranch for the evening, is that a trophy or do you have to go out to the bars and hunt down the free ones like a real sport ?