Humbled by the gunsmith

I

IdahoPotato

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Well, today I walked out of the gun store feeling defeated. Long story short, I have been struggling most of the summer with grouping a new Savage Storm 110 7mm mag with a Vortex HP scope. Tried re-mounting scope several times, two different kinds of ammo, shooting off of a led sled, etc. I followed the break in procedure in the Savage manual and got through about 100 rounds and could not get a group better than about 3 inches. Always having fliers and even some wild shots 6-8 inches out sometimes. I thought I had some major issues so I gave in and took it to a professional.

Got a message a few days later - he said copper fouling was the issue and it just needed to have the copper removed. He put in a target with the gun that showed a before 3 shot group of about 1.5 inches and an after group of about 0.75 inches. I think the conclusion here is the idiot behind the trigger can't shoot the gun.

Here's why I'm dumbfounded. I have my first rifle I have had about 15 years (Rem 700 in 270) that I have been shooting alongside the Savage the whole time. Same stock Remington trigger, not that great of an optic, never once removed copper fouling from that gun and it shoots 0.75 MOA all day off the same led sled. It will truly shoot a 4 inch group at 400 yards all day.

What am I missing? Toss the led sled? Just clean copper every 50 rounds? I am completely out of reasons why I can't get along with this Savage. I want to trust and hunt with this rifle. I didn't get a chance to go into detail with the copper issue with the gun smith, but I will give him a call today.
 
IdahoPotato said:
Well, today I walked out of the gun store feeling defeated. Long story short, I have been struggling most of the summer with grouping a new Savage Storm 110 7mm mag with a Vortex HP scope. Tried re-mounting scope several times, two different kinds of ammo, shooting off of a led sled, etc. I followed the break in procedure in the Savage manual and got through about 100 rounds and could not get a group better than about 3 inches. Always having fliers and even some wild shots 6-8 inches out sometimes. I thought I had some major issues so I gave in and took it to a professional.

Got a message a few days later - he said copper fouling was the issue and it just needed to have the copper removed. He put in a target with the gun that showed a before 3 shot group of about 1.5 inches and an after group of about 0.75 inches. I think the conclusion here is the idiot behind the trigger can't shoot the gun.

Here's why I'm dumbfounded. I have my first rifle I have had about 15 years (Rem 700 in 270) that I have been shooting alongside the Savage the whole time. Same stock Remington trigger, not that great of an optic, never once removed copper fouling from that gun and it shoots 0.75 MOA all day off the same led sled. It will truly shoot a 4 inch group at 400 yards all day.

What am I missing? Toss the led sled? Just clean copper every 50 rounds? I am completely out of reasons why I can't get along with this Savage. I want to trust and hunt with this rifle. I didn't get a chance to go into detail with the copper issue with the gun smith, but I will give him a call today.
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I think there may be a couple things going on here:

Going to a 7mm Mag from a 270 is a bit of a jump, so you may be flinching while shooting which would explain your fliers. I doubt the lead sled is the issue, but I have personally never used them so I can't comment on if they could cause an issue like this. But with my general understanding of how they work I wouldn't expect them to be causing the wide groupings.

Every gun is different when it comes to copper deposits. I have a gun that if you clean the copper it shoots poorly for awhile. Most guns I have had I never had to try to hard to remove the copper to improve accuracy. But I also don't shoot as much as some people. With that being said if you find out your gun likes minimal copper, clean it out every xx number of rounds.


Another thing to keep in mind, every gun will have the ammo it can shoot well and the ammo that it can't shoot for crap. My gun will shoot a 0.5" grouping at 100 yards with certain federal ammo, but you put winchester ammo and that grouping expands to 5" easily. Once I found the round that my gun liked, I know what not to go with and moved on.
 
SD_Prairie_Goat said:
I think there may be a couple things going on here:

Going to a 7mm Mag from a 270 is a bit of a jump, so you may be flinching while shooting which would explain your fliers. I doubt the lead sled is the issue, but I have personally never used them so I can't comment on if they could cause an issue like this. But with my general understanding of how they work I wouldn't expect them to be causing the wide groupings.

Every gun is different when it comes to copper deposits. I have a gun that if you clean the copper it shoots poorly for awhile. Most guns I have had I never had to try to hard to remove the copper to improve accuracy. But I also don't shoot as much as some people. With that being said if you find out your gun likes minimal copper, clean it out every xx number of rounds.


Another thing to keep in mind, every gun will have the ammo it can shoot well and the ammo that it can't shoot for crap. My gun will shoot a 0.5" grouping at 100 yards with certain federal ammo, but you put winchester ammo and that grouping expands to 5" easily. Once I found the round that my gun liked, I know what not to go with and moved on.
Click to expand...
I agree, “mag recoil” and bullet type preference for barrel are the two things that came to mind as I read OP.
 
As stated some guns are just finicky about things. I've got a 270 I reload for that shoots some pretty hot loads. The groups will start opening up after about 25 rounds. I typically clean with a foaming bore cleaner to take care of that issue.
 
I have a Mossberg MVP in .308 that I have been chasing my tail on for a couple years now. I finally found a round it likes, and now the Boyds stock I put it in cracked. I will be attempting an epoxy fix on that this winter when I also tear it down to fabricate a new trigger guard out of steel. The soft plastic one is stripped out and I can't get a good torque on the rear action screw. Some rifles are picky about every little thing.
 
I'll just echo that every gun is different. Even if you had another 7mag Savage, it might LOVE shooting fouled. Just one of the nuances of learning new guns. You can try switching bullets that foul less, or you can run JB Bore paste through it, or some Tubbs finishing bullets to smooth out the barrel. Granted that will also cost some barrel life because you're taking material out of the bore, but it might be negligible. Good luck.
 
SD_Prairie_Goat said:
I think there may be a couple things going on here:

Going to a 7mm Mag from a 270 is a bit of a jump, so you may be flinching while shooting which would explain your fliers. I doubt the lead sled is the issue, but I have personally never used them so I can't comment on if they could cause an issue like this. But with my general understanding of how they work I wouldn't expect them to be causing the wide groupings.

Every gun is different when it comes to copper deposits. I have a gun that if you clean the copper it shoots poorly for awhile. Most guns I have had I never had to try to hard to remove the copper to improve accuracy. But I also don't shoot as much as some people. With that being said if you find out your gun likes minimal copper, clean it out every xx number of rounds.


Another thing to keep in mind, every gun will have the ammo it can shoot well and the ammo that it can't shoot for crap. My gun will shoot a 0.5" grouping at 100 yards with certain federal ammo, but you put winchester ammo and that grouping expands to 5" easily. Once I found the round that my gun liked, I know what not to go with and moved on.
Click to expand...

I really don't think it is flinching. I don't put any weight on the led sled and really just use it as a rest with the rifle shouldered normally. I can't tell that big of a difference to my 270 since the 7 mag is a heavier gun and has an unnecessarily thick recoil pad. The 270 has no pad at all - it's just a plastic cap on the wood stock.

I'm going to call the gunsmith back on Monday and ask what brand ammo he used and which copper cleaner.
 
RockinU said:
Some guns are more sensitive to heat and being dirty. I have a .300 RUM that hates to be either hot or dirty.

There's a joke in there that I'm going to leave alone...
Click to expand...

There could be something to this. Most of my summer was spent shooting above 70 F and in the sun. Every shot gets a minimum 5 mins of barrel cooling. Will get back out now that it has cooled off.
 
Some guns just fit certain people better. I’m not a lead sled fan at all, and the gun may not like it either
 
EastTNHunter said:
Some guns just fit certain people better. I’m not a lead sled fan at all, and the gun may not like it either
Click to expand...

Funny you mention fit...I picked this gun specifically for the accufit stock. I have shorter arms and with a longer LOP it'a hard to get my trigger finger in the right spot. This rifle fits better than any gun I have ever shouldered.
 
If copper fouling is the problem it can be a couple of issues. Not all bullets are created equally. Some use harder gilding metal alloys in their jackets/construction, others use soft nearly pure copper that will leave more fouling. The rifling in your barrel may need lapping to smooth it out. Sometimes burs are left when the rifling is cut and it can cause fouling build up. I have some Savage rifles and, while I've never had accuracy issues, they definitely foul barrels worse than most of my other rifles.
 
If this is the same rifle you had chamber problems with, I’d seriously look at the bore, perhaps some machine adjustments, or a worn reamer is raising it's ugly head in your particular firearm. Might be able to polish it out, might have to look at a new barrel, it's a savage, a good barrel can be added pretty easily. It may be the best thing to do is to go back to your 270 for this season, and figure it out before next.
 
choc dogs said:
If this is the same rifle you had chamber problems with, I’d seriously look at the bore, perhaps some machine adjustments, or a worn reamer is raising it's ugly head in your particular firearm. Might be able to polish it out, might have to look at a new barrel, it's a savage, a good barrel can be added pretty easily. It may be the best thing to do is to go back to your 270 for this season, and figure it out before next.
Click to expand...

It is the same rifle, and I was considering a re-barrel since I like the fit and feel of this rifle so much. The only reason I'm holding out hope is because the gunsmith gave me back a target where he shot a 0.75 in group. Looking forward to talking to him Monday.

My elk tag opens Nov. 1st. I would take the 270 normally, but I drew a bull tag in the desert where 400 yard shots are more likely than 100 yards. A wounded lost bull from a long shot on a rare draw hunt would be tough to take.
 
You don't need 1 MOA for elk. Can you hit a paper plate at 400 yds (2 MOA)? If so, you are more than good. Kill zone is mighty big on a elk.

But, you do have to be confident in your rifle. I switched last year from my 30-06 to my 6.5 CM because I hate the trigger on my '06 and just didn't have same level of confidence.
 
RockinU said:
Some guns are more sensitive to heat and being dirty. I have a .300 RUM that hates to be either hot or dirty.

There's a joke in there that I'm going to leave alone...
Click to expand...

Not sure I'd call it a joke. Maybe more like wish or complaint as the case may be.
 
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