BROTHERS BAND TOGETHER AGAINST KERRY

[JoseCuervo]

Buzz,

Don't forget to do something productive, while wating for Cali to explain why Dubya is "fit". He keeps avoiding that question, just like he has so far managed to avoid seeing the truth about Dubya. Luckily, he has his E-Mails to rely on....

Cali,
Do you believe the $500k that the Swift Boat group has came from Veterans or from rich GOP Texans?

Cali,
Do you believe that O'Neil served with Kerry or did not serve with Kerry?

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Frankly, I am not thrilled with Bush. However, Kerry is worse.

I do not care whether the $500k came from veterans or from "rich GOP Texans." "Rich GOP Texans" are entitled to support whatever group they want to - just like you or me.

What is your definition of "served with?" It is probably different from mine. But then, I served there myself.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

If you aren't thrilled with Bush, then quit trying to discredit Kerry. Why not be apathetic on the race, and put your efforts into a race that you have some passion for? There are plenty of Congressional races, Senate races, Legislative races, Sewer District races to care about.

Since I like to hunt and fish, I do care about this race, and Dubya's actions on MY PUBLIC LANDS keep me motivated to defeat him at the polls. And to think I live in a state where Dubya will win 70% of the vote...

As a Vet, if I were you, I would resent the politicizing of the war, 30+ years later by some rich GOP republicans who are trying to re-elect some Oil guy that failed to show up for Guard Duty by smearing a decorated Officer of the United States Navy.

As for my definition of "served with", I would guess it means you were actually "with" the person, and had the first hand knowledge of how the person responds under pressure. Just being in the same country, a couple of years later, does not meet my definition.

I look at it this way, every year I do long Wilderness Raft trips on Class IV rivers, miles from help. The people I go with are those I can trust to save my life, or risk their life to save mine. I would do the same for them. Therefore, I raft "with" them. Somebody on the same river at a different time is not "with" me and I would not feel qualified to comment on their ability to be a leader.

Just how broad is your definition??? Hell, I have been to SE Asia, can I be counted as "served with"?

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Have you been shot at in SE Asia?

To me served with would mean being in the same unit, gone on the same missions, been at the same base, etc.

As a Vietnam vet, I resent Kerry lying about his service, copping out after 4 months and being anti-war then, but now using his service in that same war as a basis or consideration in direct contradiction to his earlier "convictions." He has no convictions.

I am not thrilled with Bush, but I detest Kerry.

 

[BuzzH]

Cali, another question, how do you know Kerry is worse?

I dont know what he'll do as CIC, but I sure know where we're headed with Shrub, and thats not a good thing to know.

Beings how Kerry hasnt been CIC, I dont know how you can make that statement. I find it extremely difficult to believe that Kerry could do much worse. Of course, I cant prove that he'd do any better either.

As to the book by O'Neill, I think its a pretty low-grade bunch that would trash a guy for serving his country while performing in active duty. I guess the lure of $500k is too appealing.

For the record, if you and I were running for president, I'd have enough class to leave your military/war record alone. Nothing is sacred anymore.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

In all honesty and sincerity, and this is something that has bothered me, how does a Vet explain Dubya's actions during the Viet Nam War?

Tell me where I am off base, but my understanding from talking to old people like you, is that the rich kids joined the Guard or the Air Force instead of being drafted.

How does someone who was drafted (were you drafted or did you volunteer?) and then sent over to be a grunt, in Harm's way, feel about rich kids who were in Texas, and then didn't even bother reporting to Alabama duty, instead, helping some rich family friend run for office?

Logically, I would think that someone who was over there, met their obligations, and then returned would be more supported than someone who never went.

Wouldn't you resent Dubya for getting some sort of favored slot in the Guard, and then not bothering to show up in Alabama or even take a physical, while you had people shooting at you in SE Asia????

If you have the time for a thoughtful answer, let me know. I know we go back and forth on these boards, but sincerely, I still don't understand how anyone from Viet Nam could be "pro-Bush".

 

[Calif. Hunter]

I have more anger to someone who was an opportunistic jerk, who used the system to manufacture even one Purple Heart, much less three! and then used those phony awards to get out of 'nam while the real grunts were stuck there. I tired toget in the National Guard or the Coast Guard - but my draft number was 1. Tomorrow I will add more about how my own choices led me to Vietnam.

I have a "real" Purple Heart, and I have friends who never came home. Kerry has called those guys (and me) "war criminals" in the past. Now he wants to be called a hero for what he earlier belittled. He's two-faced.

 

[chas031]

Originally posted by Calif. Hunter:
uh-huh. "manipulated." Just like Michael Moore was manipulated by Kerry?


Have you read the book? Just to be open-minded? Or are you scared to read it?

Why would such a small book upset everyone so much?

Why is it okay for Michael Moore to spout his version of reality, for profit, while this group is labled as "manipulated" or "underhanded" or "politically motivated?"

Does anyone doubt that Moore was "politically motivated" or that he seeks to manipulate public opinion under the guise of a "documentary?"

Gag.

The duplicity of the posters on here is revolting.

CH,
Better?? Smilies and all!!
This is your first post asking if the book has been read. I simply asked the same of you relating to an opposing view of events very relavant to any decision from an "open-minded" individual("or are you scared to read it?).

Chas

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Nope, not scared. Send it to me and I'll read it and post my opinion.

Just in case you missed my sarcasm - it was somewhat subtle after all - this relates back to Elk Gunner and his incessant whining about "Farenheit 911" since I believe that turn-about is fair play. Since he was the one who was insistent about watching the movie (or reading the book = get it?) and how that was required to prove that I was not scared and that I had an open mind, I simply was pointing out that he did not follow HIS own rules. Personally, I don't have to follow his (or your) rules. For myself, I never said you had to read everything and anything simply because some nimrod on the computer drew a line in the sand.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

Thanks for the answer, but can you not tell me why you hate Kerry? I would be much more interested in how a Viet Nam vet like yourself can respect somebody who scores a slot in the Guard, doesn't show up, doesn't take a physical, but still somehow earns your respect. Is it possible for you to tell me why Dubya is good, based upon his service in Viet Nam???

Can you rank these hypothetical characters from the Viet Nam era?
</font>

• Mr. C -- Gets drafted into the Army, serves his duty in-country, on the ground, getting shot at. Maybe a Purple Heart, and a handful of other medals. Gets out the day his obligation is up. Goes back and tries to start life back up.</font>
• Mr. W -- Worries about getting drafted, has a rich dad call some buddies about getting a slot in the Guard. Jumps ahead of other candidates due to his connections. Doesn't actually get qualified to do anything, asks for a transfer to another state, and then doesn't show up, as he is opportunistically working on somebody's campaign.</font>
• Mr. H -- Volunteers for the Service. Gets assigned to Viet Nam where he serves. Wins a few medals, some Purple Hearts. Sees some things that are wrong, questions why the effort is going on. Gets out of the service, goes back home and shuts up, never speaking out.</font>
• Mr. K -- Volunteers for the Service. Gets assigned to Viet Nam where he serves. Wins a few medals, some Purple Hearts. Sees some things that are wrong, questions why the effort is going on. Gets out of the service, goes back home and speaks up and helps bring the issue to the forefront of our National Dialogue.</font>
• Mr. P Air -- Loads up the '68 Charger and drives to Canada. Learns to speak French. Stays there until the late '70s.</font>

Cali,
Could you rank them, from Most Honorable to least Honorable??? It would be interesting if any others also want to rank them.

 

[chas031]

Originally posted by Calif. Hunter:
For myself, I never said you had to read everything and anything simply because some nimrod on the computer drew a line in the sand.

CH,
Yes, yes you did. In your first post. So I believe that's your line drawn in the sand.

Chas

 

[Muledeer4me]

Right on post's calif. hunter.

Why most sportsman hate Kerry.


(The Truth about John Kerry’s Record for Hunters)


"John Kerry has the highest rating on the Humane Scorecard sponsored jointly by the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and the Fund for Animals. Both groups are firmly committed to ending hunting in this country.

o HSUS’ website says “sport hunting – the killing of wild animals as recreation – is fundamentally at odds with the values of a humane, just and caring society” (emphasis added). (www.hsus.org/ace/12035; viewed 7/5/04).

o Heidi Prescott, the National Director of the Fund for Animals, said in a 1995 speech that the Fund for Animals is “unalterably opposed to the killing of animals for sport” (emphasis added). (Speech by Heidi Prescott to the 4th Annual Governors Symposium on North America’s Hunting Heritage, August 1995)



§ John Kerry was endorsed by and received an “A” rating from the League of Conservation Voters. This environmental extremist group supports anti-hunters in Congress.



§ Kerry also has a 100% voting record with the anti-gun Brady Campaign.



§ John Kerry received an “F” rating from the NRA and a “0%” rating from Gun Owners of America in their most recent rankings of legislators.

o Kerry’s campaign says he agrees with the view that there is “no personal constitutional right, under the Second Amendment, to own or use a gun”.

o Kerry made his feelings about hunters known when he said “I don’t want to be the candidate of the NRA in this country”.



§ Unlike 60% of the U.S. Congress, John Kerry is not, and has never been, a member of the Congressional Sportsmen’s Caucus. The Caucus describes its membership as “open to Congressmen and Senators who are sportsmen or who support the concept of sustained use and wildlife management, even if they do not themselves take to the fields and waters to fish, hunt or trap.”



§ Kerry, who has missed more than 2/3 of his Senate votes this year, came back to the Senate to help kill the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. During the debate, he voted for Senator Kennedy’s amendment to the bill which would have outlawed many center-fire rifle cartridges that hunters regularly use.



§ John Kerry cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act in the Senate with other enemies of hunters like Barbara Boxer, Charles Schumer and Hillary Rodham Clinton. The bill, if passed, would have greatly restricted access to our National Forest system by hunters, fishermen, and other recreational users. "



All that plus he flip flops on issue's, sided with Jane Fonda and her anti-war protester's,is one of the biggest liberal's and is more inclined to vote and act like the hollywood limp wristed pansy asses that support animal right's groups & won't support our country in a time of war.
He is more willing to back the United Nation then our own counrty .

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Look, Chas - I'm not going to play "he said, she said" with you - let me type it slowly so you can understand it -

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Elkgunner - I'm not a Bush enthusiast, as I have said before. I was before he decided to favor amnesty for illegal aliens, and before his mishandling of the "peace" in Iraq. I feel he is right about the war on terror, and despite the diversion of Iraq, he is handling that effort well and, in my opinion, better than Kerry would. (Why? Because Kerry has not shown me that he has any convictions beyond what is popular at the moment.) I also am sure that Bush will support the Second Amendment far more than Kerry. The Justice Department under Clinton was arguing in court that the Second Amendment did NOT apply to individual rights, while Ashcroft has made it plain that the Justice Department under Bush DOES interpret the Constitution as it was plainly intended to guarantee individual rights to keep and bear arms. So you can argue that no adminsitration can take away our hunting guns, but the Democrats will argue that you have no right to them. And Kerry is buddies with Feinstein, Schumer and Teddy...

Kerry is an opportunist. That is fine. But I prefer someone with at least a few deep-seated convictions. Now you can and will argue that Bush has no convictions, either - that is where we disagree and neither of us will convince the other that he is wrong.

Maybe I will get to your rankings later today, if time allows.

 

[Nemont]

I find it very interesting that anybody is surprised that a group of veterans is opposed to Kerry. He did go to Vietnam and he served those are facts that cannot be disputed. What he did while there, after his return and since is what drives many of these guys to oppose him.

It would have been so easy for him not to even have the issue questioned if his answer to nearly every question didn't start with, "well, when I was in Vietnam....". The swift boat guys have a as much of a right to speak up as anyone else in this country. I don't know who funded them but if we want to begin to look at who funds what political ads in this country we can find bad things on both side of the political spectrum.

Mr. H -- Volunteers for the Service. Gets assigned to Viet Nam where he serves. Wins a few medals, some Purple Hearts. Sees some things that are wrong, questions why the effort is going on. Gets out of the service, goes back home and shuts up, never speaking out.
Mr. K -- Volunteers for the Service. Gets assigned to Viet Nam where he serves. Wins a few medals, some Purple Hearts. Sees some things that are wrong, questions why the effort is going on. Gets out of the service, goes back home and speaks up and helps bring the issue to the forefront of our National Dialogue

EG,
If that is all Kerry did then he wouldn't have to be worried about what the Swifties are saying. If he witnessed those acts as he stated why didn't he intervene back then? Why didn't his moral outrage lead him to have a formal protest sent up the chain of command while over there in SE Asia? What everybody is forgetting is that Bush is not the one keeping Vietnam on the front burner as a campaign issue it is Kerry. Then he is upset that his version of events is questioned by other veterans.

Nemont

 

[Muledeer4me]

Democrats sideline hot-button issues
BOSTON (AP) — Wearing a stovepipe hat with a gay-pride rainbow, graphic artist Gregg Gallo peers up from his seat in the Washington delegation as speaker after speaker calls John Kerry a terrorism-fighting, medal-winning patriot. Nobody, it seems, is talking about gay rights and other hot-button issues.
"Issues are fine. Winning is great," said Gallo of Shorline, Wash., a gay delegate expressing the view shared by convention planners, party activists and even powerful Democratic special interest groups.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Abortion rights, gay rights, affirmative action, gun control — these and more traditional liberal convention themes were shoved to the margins as the Kerry team relentlessly focused its convention on the candidates' Vietnam War record.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~"The special interests that favor Democrats understand that they will be vastly better off under a Kerry administration than they have been under Bush," said Matt Bennett, spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety, which supports gun control.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"They also understand the way to get Kerry elected is to focus on the issue that is most important to voters — that is security both at home and abroad," Bennett said. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bush spokesman Steve Schmidt said Democrats are trying to keep Kerry's liberal ways from the general public. "We've said from the first hour of the convention that this will be an extreme makeover of John Kerry's 20-year record in the U.S. Senate," he said.

Kerry's fellow senator, running mate John Edwards, stirred the convention crowd on Wednesday night with his assertion that Bush has helped create "two Americas," one for the privileged and one for everybody else. He spoke of health care reform and ending poverty, longtime liberal causes.

But the thrust of Edwards' address was devoted to telling voters that Kerry had shed blood and saved lives in Vietnam. "Decisive. Strong," Edwards said. "Is this not what we need in a commander in chief?"

Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, said of her husband on Tuesday night, "No one will defend this nation more vigorously than he will — and he will always be the first in the line of fire."

Kerry aides said her words were meant to assure swing-voting suburban women, many of whom turned to Bush after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks but now are growing uneasy about Bush's leadership in Iraq.

With that dynamic in mind, the former Navy swiftboat captain arrived at his convention city on Wednesday by water with ex-crewmates in tow.

"No retreat!" Kerry growled. "No surrender!"

Inside the convention hall, special interest groups surrendered their prominence and retreated from center stage. Their voices were heard, but mostly by the already converted.

Cheryl Jacques, president of the Human Rights Campaign, spoke prior to the prime-time Wednesday night schedule to defend "marriage equality," or the right of gays to marry. Her spokesman, Mark Shields, said it makes sense to focus the convention on security, not gay rights and other liberal touchstones.

"If you look at every national poll, gay rights is not something people want politicians spending their time on. They want them spending their time on jobs, the economy and the war in Iraq," he said.

Gay rights did get some prime exposure when keynote speaker Barack Obama said people in Republican states have "gay friends," and Sen. Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts accused GOP leaders of pitting "straights against gays."

But those were passing glances, safely deployed to cast Bush and his allies as intolerant.

Abortion rights was rarely mentioned by big-time speakers, and then only in code; Al Gore asked voters to back Kerry to make sure "this president is not the one who picks the next Supreme Court."

"The only thing the pro-choice movement cares about is who lives in the White House next January," said David Seldin, spokesman for NARAL Pro-Choice America.

The same might be said for the NAACP, led by Kweisi Mfume. "Most delegates recognize the larger picture, and the larger picture is the party is finding a way against all odds to win," Mfume said.

That anything-to-beat-Bush attitude is what helped Kerry win the primary fight, when exit polls showed voters backing the Vietnam veteran mainly because they thought he had the best shot at defeating the GOP incumbent.

Albert Waganfeald, an Ohio delegate, raised a rare voice of dissent, saying the convention script was heavy on political expediency.

"I wish we would put our cards on the table and talk about affirmative action and our other issues," he said. "I guess they fear that Kerry can't win with them." ]

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey Cali,

Looks like the looney tune MD has hijacked this thread. It is amazing what failing to wear a helmet while riding an ATV can do...

If you want to start another thread, where we can discuss Dubya's "duplicitous" behaviour during the period of 1965 - 75, please start it.

It is unfortunate that some here aren't bright enough to be able to stay on topic. Now we have to read about her being worried about Doris Day...

Nemont,
Same for you, if you want to start a thread. I understand your disgust at Kerry, but it sure doesn't seem like it would be as bad as what Dubya did.

In any event, let's start a new thread, and maybe MD won't find it for a day or two...

 

[Calif. Hunter]

What are you talking about? Nemont's post was exactly on topic.

And once again - it is not Bush who keeps bringing up Vietnam - it is Kerry and his paid hacks/former crewmates.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

I agree, Nemont's post was on-topic. It was all the looney tune garbage about Doris Day that the lady without a helmet posted...

 

[chas031]

Originally posted by Calif. Hunter:
Look, Chas - I'm not going to play "he said, she said" with you - let me type it slowly so you can understand it -

i t
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CH,
Fast, slow. Doesn't make make a damn bit of difference when it's condescending minutia designed only to enflame not inform!

Chas

 

[Calif. Hunter]

And just what were the points of your "in my face" and accusatory posts if not to inflame and not to educate? You were trying to "call me out" on something, and that was inflammatory, was it not?

If you take it as condescending minutia, then perhaps it's best if you ignore it.