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BROTHERS BAND TOGETHER AGAINST KERRY

If you are going to quote me, at least cut and paste it so the gremlins come through, too.

And the redirection of threads when the poster cannot directly refute the original post is all too common here.
Chas - you were the first to bring up the book -

"CH,
Have you read "The New Pearl Harbor" ??"

which has nothing to do with the Swift Boat vets.

The next step is to personally attack the opponent, on topics or items that have nothing to do with the current post, and I have to admit that I begin to respond in the same manner. Like I did in my last post...
 
Cali,

Let's be honest here, you don't really think ElkCheese could actually refute or defend any subsequent comments on this thread, do you????

He couldn't even defend his comments about "politics as usual" as it referred to fighting fires this year in the West.

I did post more information on the group that has the $100k donations from rich Texans, and claims to be Swift Boat veterans. I am surprised you don't take exception to the willful manipulation of a Vetrans group by Dubya's political cronies.
 
I doubt that any of these guys are so spineless, foolish or naive as to be manipulated by anyone. Why is that anyone who opposes Kerry is part of some right-wing conspiracy, or are being manipulated by "Bush's political cronies?" Maybe they simply support Bush, based upon their personal experience with Kerry? Nah, can't be that simple.....it's all a plot.


And I have yet to see anyone, other than ElkGunner, claim that these guys are not veterans of the Brown Water Navy! I cannot believe that if even one of them could be shown to be claiming veteran status and was not a vet, that the Democrats would not be shouting it from every rooftop in America.
 
C'mon Cali,

O'Neil was a pawn of Nixon, they paraded him around in the 70's.... You don't think O'Neil is anti-Kerry, it is just that he is some easily manipulated person the GOP trots out when they need him. The very definition of being "manipulated".

Remember, most of these guys did not have "personal experience" with Kerry. He was only there for 3 months. No, most of these guys are getting manipulated and drawn into this thing for political gain.
 
Cali,

This guy sure doesn't seem to be a Swift Boat Veteran....

It's also relevant to know who's underwriting this advertising campaign. The biggest single donor so far to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth isn't a Swift boat veteran but one of the leading Republican donors in Texas. Houston builder Bob J. Perry gave the group $100,000, accounting for the bulk of the $158,000 in receipts it has reported. It's fair to ask whether truth is at the top of this group's agenda.
Sure sounds like a polical group, not a Veterans group. Almost sounds "duplicitous".... :rolleyes:
 
So that photograph of Kerry with these guys is not real? Man, that ought to be all over the news! You'd better call the networks, ElkGunner! You just came up with the scoop of the decade!

So - these guys at the same bases, eating out of the same officers' mess, sleeping in the same officers' quarters, going on the same missions and being on boats 100 feet away from Kerry, had no personal experience with him? The guy who relieved Kerry from his command when he skipped out of Vietnam with his phony Purple Hearts didn't have "personal experience" with Kerry? Do you know anything about how command is handed off when one officer is relieved?

The doctor who treated one of Kerry's "wounds" had no personal expereince with him?
 
Cali, how does Bush's vietnam era experience make him more qualified as CIC than Kerry and his war time experience?
 
C'mon Cali, do you have Kerry's medical records??? How come the Dr. that is denying the injuries was not the attending physician?

Do you really think this Swift boat group is anything other than a GOP PAC to funnel more anti-Kerry $$$$ to buy advertising space?

Last week, thanks to constant plugs by the Drudge Report, a book entitled Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry reached Amazon's number 1 spot based on pre-orders. At the same time, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth released a TV ad which attempted to call Kerry's honesty into question and insisted that he'd "betrayed" his fellow troops and was not fit to lead the country. The ad begins with a clip of John Edwards saying, "If you have any questions about what John Kerry's made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him." The screen goes black, and writing appears which says "Here's what those men think about John Kerry," before launching into a series of clips of Vietnam veterans personally attacking Kerry and accusing him of lying. Let's break this down shall we?


Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is supposed to be a non-partisan organization. But it was organized with the assistance of Merrie Spaeth, a Republican public relations executive "whose late husband, Tex Lezar, ran for Texas lieutenant governor on George W. Bush's ticket in 1994," according to Salon.com.


Also according to Salon, the Swift Boat Veterans' website "was put up courtesy of William Franke, a St. Louis businessman with longstanding ties to Attorney General John Ashcroft and the Missouri Republican Party. Its chief financiers, according to the group's last quarterly IRS filing, are Houston builder Bob J. Perry and the Crow family, both major Republican donors from Texas." During the past four years Perry has apparently given "$5 million to candidates and causes, nearly all of them Republican and extremely conservative."


Again, according to Salon, "the group's IRS filing names several experienced Washington political operatives. The June 30 filing shows payments to Robert A. Hahn, a right-wing Internet activist and Web designer who also runs something called the Free Republic Network."


Swift Boat Veterans head honcho and co-author of the Kerry-bashing book, John O'Neill, is a partisan hack who used to clerk for William Rehnquist and has had a long-standing feud with Kerry since the early seventies, when he was hand-picked by Richard Nixon in an effort to discredit Kerry's anti-war activities.


None of the veterans in the commercial served on a boat with John Kerry. Despite saying in the ad that they "served with" Kerry, they only served in Vietnam at the same time as Kerry. All but one of the surviving veterans who actually served under Kerry's command have endorsed him and strongly support him. Jim Rassmann called the ad, "pure fabrication."


One of the veterans who appears in the ad - Kerry's commander in Vietnam, George Elliott - said last week that he had made a "terrible mistake" by suggesting Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star. Elliott originally recommended Kerry for the award, saying he was "calm, professional, and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire." Elliott - along with one of the other Swift Boat Veterans - even came to Boston during Kerry's Senate campaign in 1996 to support him. Now he says that his contradictory statements "makes me look kind of silly, to be perfectly honest." By the way, Elliott has since retracted his retraction. Guess the guy just can't decide what he believes. Either that or his "pals" gently reminded him that it ain't so easy to back out of a signed affidavit.


John McCain, chairman of Bush's campaign in Arizona, denounced the ads last week, saying, "I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire." Referring to the dirty tricks Team Bush used against McCain during the 2000 Republican primaries, he said, "It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me."


Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said, "We have been very clear in stating that, you know, we will not - and we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam," but refused to condemn or criticize the ad, instead using the opportunity to complain about "unregulated soft-money activity."
So - Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? Hardly. On the contrary, this is likely to go down in history as one of the most dishonest and dirtiest campaign tricks ever. Shame on Team Bush for not disowning this crap.
 
The "Band of Brothers" just seems to keep losing credibility. :rolleyes:

Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, the so-called “independent” group of Navy Vietnam vets who have launched attacks against Democratic Presidential Contender John F. Kerry, is led by a longtime Republican operative and financed by GOP contributors with strong tries to President George W. Bush.
The Republican roots of the group stretch back to former Republican President Richard M. Nixon when one of the group’s leaders, former Swift Boat commander John O’Neill, was recruited by White House chief counsel Charles Colson to debate Kerry on The Dick Cavett Show in 1971.

:rolleyes: "We found a vet named John O'Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O'Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group," Colson told reporter Joe Klein in a January 5 interview published in The New Yorker magazine.

O’Neill did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam and did not know him but Nixon was anxious to find a veteran, any veteran, to debate veteran and antiwar activist Kerry. The plan failed. The eloquent Kerry wiped the floor with O’Neill and those closest to the Republican O’Neill say he never forgave Kerry for embarrassing him on national TV.

O’Neill went on to clerk for Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist, a Nixon appointee, and became a lawyer in Houston where he was active in Republican politics. In 1991, Texas Lawyer magazine reported O’Neill was on the short list for appointment to a federal judgeship in Texas by Bush’s father, former President George H.W. Bush. He didn’t get the appointment.

O’Neill is still working for the Republican Party as lead author of Unfit for Command: Swift Boat for Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, scheduled for release this week by right-wing publishing house Regnery. The group also bought $500,000 of airtime for a 60-second attack ad against Kerry to air in the battleground states of Wisconsin, Ohio and West Virginia.

Republicans gleefully claim Unfit for Command, is their Fahrenheit 9/11 in reference to the Michael Moore documentary that has earned more than $100 million and raises questions about Bush’s fitness for office.

It is a dubious comparison at best and ironic since Republicans also claim “Fahrenheit” is a work of fiction and those who have studied Kerry’s record in Vietnam say the same of Unfit for Command.

“These are malicious fabrications in the heat of the election,” says historian Douglas Brinkley, author of highly-acclaimed Tour of Duty, who has investigated Kerry’s service record extensively and says the claims in Unfit for Command are nothing more than the grumbling of “malcontents who have never forgiven Kerry for his actions in speaking out against the war.”

Brinkley points out that O’Neill’s primary source for Unfit for Command, Retired Admiral Roy Hoffman, has changed his claims against Kerry and has told conflicting stories.

“They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry,” Brinkley says. “Hoffman, in particular lacks credibility.”

On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote “Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally.”

On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats."

Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam."

O’Neill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an “exclusive” interview after they learned O’Neill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March.

According to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth’s IRS and FEC filings, the group is bankrolled by two Bush friends: Texas GOP backer Bob J. Perry, who has donated more than $100,000 and Crow Holdings, a Dallas development company run by Harlan Crow, a trustee for the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library. Crow provided the bulk of the remaining budget for the group's operations, including the anti-Kerry television ads -- more than $400,000.

Perry, a Houston homebuilder, is a major financial backer of both Bush and Texas Congressman Tom DeLay. In the 1999-2000 election cycle, according to Federal Election Commission records, Perry gave more than $260,000 to Republican candidates and party committees. FEC filings show Crow gave more than $300,000 to GOP causes in the same cycle.

St. Louis businessman William Franke, a Missouri Republican with close ties to Attorney General John Ashcroft, is paying for the group’s web site, according to the IRS filings. Robert A. Hahn, the web site designer is a director for The Free Republic Network, a conservative Republican activist organization, as is webmaster Scott Swett.
 
As usuall, Gunner & Buzz try to change the subject.
Gunner, you know what book I'm talking about.
It's an easy yes/no question.

Yes, I have read "Unfit to Serve", cover to cover, so I'm qualified to commint on it.

No, I did not read it, I'm just spouting more bullshit from the DNC because I belive everything they say.

Choose one of the above.
 
A-con, WTF does a book written by a bunch of vietnam vets who never served directly with Kerry have to do with Kerry's ability to lead?

What did Bush do to make him qualified (in regard to his military service)to be CIC?

I personally dont think either guys military experience makes them automatically fit to lead the United States...do you?

The last thing I'm going to trust is a "book" written with huge support from some oil baron in Texas. But, hey, believe what you want.
 
A-Con,

No, I was not sure which book you were talking about. If you read Coulter's ramblings, it isn't so much about a book, as about her trying to ressurrect some sort of career and folowing.

After forcing myself to re-read the poor writing and lack of coherent thoughts of Ms. Coulter, I think you are asking about the book by O'Neil and Corsi. Are they selling that book yet, or still just pre-selling it?

As no, I have not read it yet. My guess is that I will wait for the Movie to come out... :D

Hey, do you know if Cali was ever able to scrape together $7 to go see Farenheit 9/11?
 
Funny how all these middle-aged former crewmen from Kerry's boat were all able to quit their jobs and run all over the country promoting Kerry. I wonder who's paying them? Could they be a left-wing, liberal PAC funded by the candidate himself or his beyond-wealthy wife?

There is one former crewman who does not support Kerry, and guess what? He's not on anyone's payroll!

Nah... only Republicans do that.

I've also heard others say that O'Neill whipped Kerry's butt in the same televised debate that the above article claims Kerry won. How do you decide who won the debate, other than the viewer's own opinion? It's not like a prize fight where one guy is left standing.

Where did you get these articles? At least ElkChaser cites his sources. Or is this the same as "those ridiculous e-mails and other factually inaccurate crap you cut and paste off other forums" that you accuse me of?

Moosie has a general idea of how much money I make - you can ask him if I can afford $7.
 
Hmmmm.....

Let see, Kerry went on to be a Senator in the US, marry a widowed Millionaire, and run for President of the USA, where the other guy had to live in Texas....

I would say Kerry won pretty much hands-down... :cool:

Cali,
Do you really think that two rich Texans ponying up 1/2 a million $$$$ is a Veterans group with crediblity? or are they just another partisan PAC of Right-wing nuts. :rolleyes:

I really thought this thread was about the Group, and their lack of crediblity. I didn't know the thread was about the book by O'Neil and its' lack of creidibilty. :rolleyes:
 
I find it hard to believe that all of the guys in that photo with Kerry are now all members of a right-wing conspiracy or that they were all bought off by "rich Texans."

You still did not respond to the fact that all but one of Kerry's former crewmates are on his (or his wife's) payroll. So it's okay for a wealthy New England Senator, with a sugar-mama widow heiress wife, to buy the support of a group of veterans, but it's not okay for Texans to support a group they agree with? When it's Republicans, they are right-wing nut jobs, manipulated and bought off by rich Texans - but when they are Kerry supporters, what are they? Patriots? They have more credibility, actually being on Kerry's payroll?

And I did not bring O'Neill's book into this thread.
 
So then we agree that this thread was about a bunch of right wing hacks from Texas who are manipulating a bunch of Veterans in order to try and re-elect their boy, Dubya.

At least we agree on something. :cool:
 
The only question I want answered by the Bush crowd is what in Bush's military experience qualifies him for CIC versus Kerry's experience making him unfit?

What a bunch of crap.

Maybe we should start a new book, "Unfit for Cheerleading". We could probably pay the Yale Cheer squad enough to rake Shrub over the coals to show how he dropped a blonde on her ass...which surely would make him unfit as CIC.
 
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