Biden vs Gun Owners

[Pmacc60]

Just curious on this thought. Do you agree that guns are objects designed specifically with the intent to kill though right? Is so, do they deserve a higher regulation level than lug wrenches?

I agree perception of guns has changed over time. Guns were necessary tools for most people 100 yrs ago, like a smart phone today. Today, not so much. Also I’m not sure if we have a higher % of wackos, but we certainly have a higher absolute number of wackos, and we hear about every wacko, for better and worse.

I think it’s irrelevant what a firearms purpose is or what it was created for. More importantly is how it’s owned whom its in the possession of and what said person is doing with this weapon. I have faith in my fellow legal gun owner , I believe we are the most responsible group in the country. Sure there are idiots but overall for every idiot there are hundreds of thousands of people per idiot that aren’t a problem. Millions of gun owners doing it right day in and day out .

Think about it what about the person who buys the high performance car , motorcycle, four wheeler or boat do you think they don’t use those items to capacity once in a while hence breaking the law and putting people at risk? Street outlaws is a tv show that glorifies it .

New gun owners are joining our ranks every day , I know several new owners who have taken the HQL course here in Md in the past couple of months . Hunters and gun owners are constantly bitching about others behavior because we police our ranks . We complain about others behavior that is suspect where other groups applaud bad behavior in those ranks such as burn outs on the street , truck guys rolling coal or rice rocket fans of the interstate wheel stand down a busy highway!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

to get this thread back on track, is Teddy Roosevelt the last president who hunted ? I was curious if any of our recent presidents have any first hand knowledge about firearms and hunting.

Who have been hunting, basically all of them since the 1900s have done some hunting or shooting photo ops, Trump is the only President I can think of that never tried to embrace shooting sports. Reagan, Nixon, Clinton, Obama are the presidents who hunted or shot the least.

In terms of presidents who actually enjoyed hunting and did so on their own time away from the camera, presidents who killed and gutted a deer solo let’s call it.

LBJ
Bush Jr
Carter

I think Carter was still turkey hunting at 94 or something like that. Bush and LBJ certainly hunt a fair bit on their respective properties, but I think Carter is probably #2 as far as presidents who were/are sportsman and advocates for the sport.
From Carter’s book Outdoor Journal:



A secondary category is probably Presidents who enjoyed upland or the occasional guided hunt.

Eisenhower
Kennedy
Bush Sr
Truman
Ford
Hoover

Also anyone else remember the Bear Grylls episode with Obama

 

[406dn]

I think it’s irrelevant what a firearms purpose is or what it was created for. More importantly is how it’s owned whom its in the possession of and what said person is doing with this weapon. I have faith in my fellow legal gun owner , I believe we are the most responsible group in the country. Sure there are idiots but overall for every idiot there are hundreds of thousands of people per idiot that aren’t a problem. Millions of gun owners doing it right day in and day out .

Think about it what about the person who buys the high performance car , motorcycle, four wheeler or boat do you think they don’t use those items to capacity once in a while hence breaking the law and putting people at risk? Street outlaws is a tv show that glorifies it .

New gun owners are joining our ranks every day , I know several new owners who have taken the HQL course here in Md in the past couple of months . Hunters and gun owners are constantly bitching about others behavior because we police our ranks . We complain about others behavior that is suspect where other groups applaud bad behavior in those ranks such as burn outs on the street , truck guys rolling coal or rice rocket fans of the interstate wheel stand down a busy highway!

These groups you bemoan are not excluded from being gun owners. Any trip to a public land shooting area will show considerable evidence of idiots.

Highway signs aren't shot up by non gun owners.

Gun owners, in total, commit more homicides than non gun owners.

Gun owners are just like everyone else. Some good, some not so good.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Randi further digression, but whatever page 25.

Here’s Carter a bit more on hunting. I think further goes to the idea this isn’t a D or an R thing.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Serious question I see the NFA act of 1934 cited in this thread. Is Chicago a safer city in 2021 than it was in 1934?

Also Sandy Hook is mentioned a lot. Didnt that nut job commit like 3-4 felonies before he even started shooting in the school?

I don’t know the answer to the problem I just don’t see banning stuff or giving up things is going to solve the problem we have in this country of not treating people decent and having regard for life. That’s the great thing about teaching my son early about firearms and hunting. It’s a serious thing taking the life of an animal and he truly understands what happens when he let’s a round go down range that there are consequences for that bullet and he is responsible for it.

I think specific examples are really hard because there is so much nuance. Sandy Hook, the Aurora shooting which took place down the street from our house... yeah I think those people would have killed people no matter the law.

When I consider these issues I look at the data in aggregate and consider laws as limited solutions.

Would a 21 year old uniform age restriction + mandatory permit nation wide + safe storage law stop handgun deaths, absolutely not. Would it reduce them by 30% reduce deaths by 4K-5k? Possibly.

 

[MTGomer]

Would a 21 year old uniform age restriction + mandatory permit nation wide + safe storage law stop handgun deaths, absolutely not. Would it reduce them by 30% reduce deaths by 4K-5k? Possibly.

I wouldn’t support it but I could see a permit on an individual level being workable, it’s hard to imagine the government putting together a firearm database/permit per firearm and managing and updating it well.

 

[MTGomer]

What an ignorant, mindless, and imbecilic idea/proposal. So now we are to be held liable for someone else breaking a law? Your car gets stolen, and was crashed and killed somebody and its your fault? Prescription medication stolen and a death results, and its your fault? A liquor store clerk responsible for drunk driving deaths?

Get real. It's always someone else's fault isn't it?

Edit to add bold.

It’s called victim blaming.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I wouldn’t support it but I could see a permit on an individual level being workable, it’s hard to imagine the government putting together a firearm database/permit per firearm and managing and updating it well.

Totally, I did the math on another thread, but you’re basically looking at a similar number of guns as cars in the US. So a federal DMV...

Your passport takes what 6 months to renew and is good 10 years... good luck with that gun database and yearly renewals.

Sad thing is if you took the billons of $ that the system would require and invested it in our inner city and rust belt you would probably reduce gun deaths by the same amount.

 

[Pmacc60]

These groups you bemoan are not excluded from being gun owners. Any trip to a public land shooting area will show considerable evidence of idiots.

Highway signs aren't shot up by non gun owners.

Gun owners, in total, commit more homicides than non gun owners.

Gun owners are just like everyone else. Some good, some not so good.

Well sure there are idiots and you and some others love to point out their short comings however the truth is hunting is one of the safest recreations in the country ! How many range accidents happen in a year ? Like I said we police ourselves and the truth is there are idiots all around and that is never going to change. You have more chance to be injured by someone on their cell phone driving then a gun. Boating accidents , motorcycle accidents , 81,000 dead do to overdose not counting the bodies on gang billow cell getting out the product so these people can overdose!
You live on the negative side of humanity but you don’t see that guns are one of the least problems getting most of the heat!

 

[Ben Lamb]

Who have been hunting, basically all of them since the 1900s have done some hunting or shooting photo ops, Trump is the only President I can think of that never tried to embrace shooting sports. Reagan, Nixon, Clinton, Obama are the presidents who hunted or shot the least.

In terms of presidents who actually enjoyed hunting and did so on their own time away from the camera, presidents who killed and gutted a deer solo let’s call it.

LBJ
Bush Jr
Carter

I think Carter was still turkey hunting at 94 or something like that. Bush and LBJ certainly hunt a fair bit on their respective properties, but I think Carter is probably #2 as far as presidents who were/are sportsman and advocates for the sport.
From Carter’s book Outdoor Journal:

View attachment 174748

A secondary category is probably Presidents who enjoyed upland or the occasional guided hunt.

Eisenhower
Kennedy
Bush Sr
Truman
Ford
Hoover

Also anyone else remember the Bear Grylls episode with Obama

Bush Sr was an avid outdoorsman and a hell of a conservationist as well.

Those who want to cite the NFA & Chicago like it's a great indictment of gun control aren't looking at the whole picture. The NFA has reduced gun violence significantly nationally, which it was intended to do. By disallowing the sale of fully automatic weapons, etc, it's kept America far safer than it was in the 20's & 30's when machine gun battles were happening around the nation between gangsters & law enforcement, etc. Could you imagine the insanity that terrorist groups like Proud Boys, 3%'ers, etc would bring upon America is they were running around with SAW's, M2's, etc?

Chicago's gun violence problems are directly caused by poverty & a lack of a path out of that life. Just like predominantly white, rural WV's gun violence problems.

 

[406dn]

You have more chance to be injured by someone on their cell phone driving then a gun.

You will have a hard time proving that one.

 

[Nick87]

Chicago's gun violence problems are directly caused by poverty & a lack of a path out of that life. Just like predominantly white, rural WV's gun violence problems

Agreed, the same people who have been keeping them in poverty etc are the same ones advocating for more gun laws.

 

[Trial153]

When all you have is whataboutism, you really dont have anything at all.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Agreed, the same people who have been keeping them in poverty etc are the same ones advocating for more gun laws.

Democratic polices can be just as bad as republican policies, no doubt. but to try and make this partisan rather than see it for the real issue is another step towards never solving the issue, and simply trying to make it partisan.

Both R's & D's have good solutions to gun violence, but neither are going to step away from wall street's tit long enough to figure it out. The dem push to overregulate is just as disruptive to our lives as the republican push to underregulate.

 

[Trial153]

Agreed, the same people who have been keeping them in poverty etc are the same ones advocating for more gun laws.

I thought the conservatives credo is no excuses. Everyone is product of their own choices and actions. This is America everyone can succeed.
Oh wait, except for the "same ones" that keep you in poverty.

The mental gymnastics( not the first word that came to mind) sure is tedious on this subject.

 

[Nick87]

Democratic polices can be just as bad as republican policies, no doubt. but to try and make this partisan rather than see it for the real issue is another step towards never solving the issue, and simply trying to make it partisan.

Both R's & D's have good solutions to gun violence, but neither are going to step away from wall street's tit long enough to figure it out. The dem push to overregulate is just as disruptive to our lives as the republican push to underregulate.

Agreed, I wasnt blaming r's or d's for this its whomever is in office regardless of political party promises to fix things in these places and they never do. Just more knee jerk reaction on gun control.

The mental gymnastics( not the first word that came to mind) sure is tedious on this subject.
[/QUOTE]
I never said it was a "d vs r" thing. It's just the same ol make them

 

[VikingsGuy]

. . . instead applaud baby mamas (how many TV shows?), rappers with violent and misogynistic lyrics, and millionaire athletes with drug problems. . . .

I agree this is more of a social problem than a "gun problem", hence my call for conservatives to address these root causes.

And, I am not calling you a racist personally, but more broadly when these three stereotypes are used to describe the problem, they are typically directed at black folks being at the heart of the criticism. But as we have seen the meth craze and rural disintegration over the last 20 years we have similar rates of unwed mothers, drug use, crime etc in poor white communities. Yet, you interestingly didn't mention terms that might be more commonly used for white cultural problems - violent and misogynistic video games, American job-killing hedge funds, an odd celebration of the confederacy, hero-worship of groups like the Proud Boys, etc.

This is not a black/white issue, it is not a Detroit/WV issue. There are problems across races and across geographies, and as you note they are human problems. The only question is will we be part of solving it, or will we leave it to others (and complain about their choices)?

 

[DouglasR]

Bush Sr was an avid outdoorsman and a hell of a conservationist as well.

Those who want to cite the NFA & Chicago like it's a great indictment of gun control aren't looking at the whole picture. The NFA has reduced gun violence significantly nationally, which it was intended to do. By disallowing the sale of fully automatic weapons, etc, it's kept America far safer than it was in the 20's & 30's when machine gun battles were happening around the nation between gangsters & law enforcement, etc. Could you imagine the insanity that terrorist groups like Proud Boys, 3%'ers, etc would bring upon America is they were running around with SAW's, M2's, etc?

Chicago's gun violence problems are directly caused by poverty & a lack of a path out of that life. Just like predominantly white, rural WV's gun violence problems.

I just don’t understand how being poor in a country where it’s hard to starve to death leads someone to be such a piece of shit that they would pull out a gun and shoot another human.

If terrorist groups like BLM, antifa and proud boys were gonna machine gun fight wouldn’t they be semi auto fighting right now?

 

[Pmacc60]

You will have a hard time proving that one.

Studies have shown driving with a cell phone is as bad as driving under the influence ! Hence all the cell phone / driving laws !

 

[Randi]

I agree this is more of a social problem than a "gun problem", hence my call for conservatives to address these root causes.
This is not a black/white issue, it is not a Detroit/WV issue. There are problems across races and across geographies, and as you note they are human problems. The only question is will we be part of solving it, or will we leave it to others (and complain about their choices)?

or gender.

We had and are having this discussion in a college class at this moment and it was stated ( by several males ) that women have no experience with violence, at least in comparison to men. We pointed out that in 2019 there were 400,000 forcible rapes ( that were reported ) in the United States and 16000 homicides.

Some were also surprised to find out New York and Chicago were not where most homicides were committed, but California and Texas.

As stated above this is not a black/white, Detroit/WV, or male/female issue.

and thank you for the information relating to the Presidents who have hunted and have first hand firearm knowledge. As well as who guides the presidents without first hand knowledge.

One last comment. One of the things I have noticed among young adults is the "it is not my fault" syndrome. In my opinion this has to change, as we are all responsible for our actions OR lack of action, in some cases

I am now off my soap box