A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[Addicting]

True, however there is this bizarre new culture and glorification that has been built around the AR style rifles that seems to draw these lunatics into using them for horrible acts. I hate to say it but I'm not real sure the average joe needs to be able to walk into a sporting goods store and buy one of these the same day. For lawful gun owners and enthusiasts who appreciate these rifles, I want them to be able to purchase and shoot them, but I would like to see a more thorough and longer process in place to weed out the impulsive and mentally ill individuals. The fact that the shooter in Texas went in the day after his 18th birthday and bought one is pretty troubling to me.

Agreed, but how many days after his birthday did he do the shooting? Would he still of had time if the process was longer? Would he still of been unstable if he had to be 21?

I am as sick of this as anyone on here. But making new gun laws to solve this isn’t going to help the root of the problem. We are very effective at killing people no matter what the tool is. Regulating tools to prevent it only shifts the tool that is used next time.

 

[Mkamman]

I think the question should be functional families - whether that is one or two parents. I don't think living in a home where alcoholic dad beats mom and kids everytime the Packers lose a game is inviting a great social order either.

You are correct and that is more of what I meant.
Also I believe we have the ability to help the people in our communities without the aid of the government or new laws. If I spent half of the time volunteering as I do escouting maybe it could start the change needed in a young man.

 

[MTGomer]

I’m not particularly religious myself and I don’t believe morality can be legislatd, but it seems if there’s a pretty strong push in this country towards an intentional immoral, valueless, type of degeneracy and it is pushed by the side of the political spectrum that wants to see gun control in response to violence.
I can’t help but imagine that gender wokeism, racism, two years of fake paranoia, social isolation and masking of children, intentional destruction of the nuclear family, etc. is making anything better. These problems certainly aren’t caused by two parent households, promoting traditional, Christian values, hard work and decency.
Maybe your kid doesn’t need seven pharmaceuticals. Maybe he just needs to go split some firewood, and for his dad to beat his ass for lying and for his mom to make a nice dinner, for the family to all sit down and have together.
If someone’s daughter aspires to be a tik tok influencer making slutty dance videos or an only fans “model”, instead of an electrical engineer or (gasp) a stay at home mom/wife, perhaps that’s a sign that somewhere things went a bit off the rails.

 

[Nick87]

A sawed off 12 guage with buckshot is just as deadly if not more. Just not as cool, black, or as scary in the media. There is no enforceable win down that rabbit hole.

I will concede there isn’t a need for high capacity Mag for the general public.

Yup if I wanted to do mass amounts of damage a shotgun with 000 buck would probably be the most efficient tool for the job.

 

[HSi-ESi]

A couple of points to add to VG's list that I've been thinking about lately.

- Firearm safety instruction in school's. It would be great if NSSF could get back to one of it's core values and really promote safe instruction. Many people have a huge fear when they see any gun - knowledge of how to safely clear a weapon is a confidence booster.

- Introduce more shooting sports into school activities. It could be skeet/trap, etc. Give kids knowledge and an outlet. Heck, it would be easy to setup a pellet gun range in PE and have all kids go through safety, handling and shooting basics.

 

[runningmt]

Yup if I wanted to do mass amounts of damage a shotgun with 000 buck would probably be the most efficient tool for the job.

True, but that’s not what people are doing.

A hot 50 amp power source into an Olympic sized pool filled with people would be more deadly too….that’s not what’s happening though.

“Whataboutism” is the term

 

[TwistedSage]

There should be a minimum security requirement for schools to help better control access, as much as it bums me out seeing all the school fenced in like a detention center the kids need to be secure. This evil can happen anywhere.

While I'm not absolute against any new laws I think they are more of a bandaid or treating of symptoms and not the cause. As far as school shootings go I beleive what we are seeing is the effects of generations of kids further removed from thier communities or even families and raised on the internet. It's a societal problem at this point but it starts at the home. I beleive we are seeing an increasing amount of young adults that are not as socially developed as previous generations..
From what it sounds like the kids own family said he was very quiet and spent most of his time in his room. Lost touch from friends he had when he was younger and im guessing found his outlet with other sick f**ks on the internet. This seems to be a repeat pattern with school shootings.

As mentioned earlier the majority of gun crime is committed with illegal guns in relation to other criminal activity. I do not beleive new gun laws will not curb this metric.

One avenue that I think is worth exploring is the age requirements for purchasing or having a co owner for the weapon until the person is of age. Although right away i can see the argument of there full well being responsible and stable 18 year olds that can safely handle and use firearms. To my earlier point I just think we are seeing the results of generations of kids increasingly detached from the world right in front of them that is some cases they are not as socially or morally developed as the young adults of the past. I know it's more than just electronics or the internet. But the times sure have changed. I think these are issues we need to work on as communities and families. I am just reluctant on any government fix.

 

[Scott85]

Enforce the current guns laws on the books first before making new ones. There have been 14 school shootings that have claimed 4 or more lives since 1999, the total of these attacks have totaled 169 lives lost. In Chicago from January 1, 2021 to January 10, 2022 276 children under the age of 16 were killed, yet there is no outrage by news outlets.

 

[ignorethefringes]

As I've said before, mandatory capacity limits for guns is a bone that we could easily throw to satisfy some of the antis. And, truth be told, it just plain makes sense. No one has any logical need for a weapon that can rapid fire twenty rounds (or more!) without loading. There is only one purpose for those guns and that is designated military or law enforcement. I think the federal govt can EASILY get away with limiting capacities without treading on the horribly outdated 2nd Amendment. I think the alternative is watching the 2nd Amendment go away. If the Supreme Court won't do it, the people will by calling a Constitutional Convention. And boys, you DON'T want that Pandora's Box opened! But this shit just can't go on. We can help shape change or suffer the consequences. Change will come.

Federal licensing, testing, background checks for possession (not just purchases) is LONG overdue. Then the silly FFA restrictions for acquisition can be discarded. How sweet would it be to simply mail order your own guns again like we do up here? There's a GREAT bone to throw the antis (actually I think the correct label would be the "concerned-gun crowd").

And for those who espouse the old "give em an inch, they'll take a mile" BS: you're giving them a hundred miles with that kind of talk! Almost a stupid as "gun control won't stop violent crime." Well, of course it won't. We're still basically animals (with God-like power). But we can mitigate the damage. We have to try.

There are a lot of things we don't have logical need for but we do (or want to do) anyway.

Limit the maximum caloric count of all restaurant meals to 1,000 or less to combat the rising medical costs associated with obesity related diseases.

All new vehicles should include a governor to limit the vehicle to 85 mph, since that it probably the highest speed limit anywhere in the country, to combat death and destruction associated with vehicular recklessness.

No more than 3 servings of alcohol should be served to any one individual within a 1 hour period. Drunk driving is still a problem and domestic abuse associated with alcoholism is rampant.

Etc.

 

[Nick87]

True, but that’s not what people are doing.

A hot 50 amp power source into an Olympic sized pool filled with people would be more deadly too….that’s not what’s happening though.

“Whataboutism” is the term

Right because they won't resort to that if they don't have access to an AR style platform.

 

[A207X2]

Here's another "common sense" proposal to gun control:

1. Arm every citizen (who can lawfully own a firearm) and encourage them to learn how to shoot. Alan Simpson once said "Where I come from, gun control means a steady aim".
2. For citizens that cannot be armed (children, elderly, infirmed, etc.) ensure that they are in a secure environment. This means controlled access to schools, hospitals, assisted living and other such places. Armed security in place. Budget for it at the Federal level.
3. Enforce laws that are already on the books.
4. And finally, if you commit a crime with a firearm (not kill someone, just commit a crime with a gun) - and are found guilty of the crime by a jury of your peers - you receive the death penalty. Fast-track any appeals, and unless overturned proceed with sentencing.

Watch how gun violence drops off. It won't get rid of all of it, but it will get rid of those who flaunt the use of firearms. You don't need to touch the 2nd Amendment to do any of this.

 

[longbow51]

Great points by everyone.

I don't have much to add, but I do agree with the following:

1. I would agree (reluctantly) that AR ownership be limited to > 21, just as handguns generally are. Sticks in my craw a bit because we have asked many, many 18 year old kids to die in senseless wars.
2. As far as no ARs in general, have we forgotten summer 2020? Perfect defense weapon for home invasion by multiple perps. Hope we never get there again, but hope is poor preparation.
3. As for Chicago and other inner cities, we really don't have to debate much on this. Just read Thomas Sowell. We (I'm from the government and here to help) created the problem in the 60s, and could fix it, but the fixes would never pass the Senate.
4. Enforce gun laws on the books. Folks in NY/CA shoot folks and are out in a day or so. Use a gun in commission of a felony, mandatory 3-5 years.
5. Never, never, ever close schools again.
6. And I hate to go all China, but get kids off their screens and into the real world once in a while.
7. Harden the targets.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I appreciate VK and other putting forth the time and thoughts on the subject. I've participated in similar discussions in classroom settings, one thing I found useful is to identify the "problem" then address how the "solution" could apply.

Are mass shootings with rifles the problem? Or the general proliferation of "gun violence" in major cities? I believe the two are vastly different and would need very different solutions. Although, the one overarching commonality between the two perpetrators is a complete disregard for any laws.

I can't speak for others but here is my problem statement.

First, every day, with guns or not, millions of Americans struggle with unmet mental health needs. Not only these millions suffer, but a large multiple of these millions in the form of spouses, parents, kids, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc also suffer alongside them. Americans can't seem to quit squabbling about far less compelling issues and petty politics long enough to meaningfully address.

Second, some urban areas and some rural areas have lost most social cohesion and any semblance of hope. This drives a concentration of gangs, drugs and associated violence. Economic opportunity is the only viable path out of this mess. But again, neither side seems willing to do the hard work beyond virtue signaling.

But once or twice a year an active shooter brings mental health to the headlines, as does skyrocketing gang violence in major cities. So, I would like to use society's obsession/fascination with these "black swans" to move on broader mental health and economic development initiatives. To bring some supporters along, a mixed bag of gun control tweaks (some a little tighter, some a little looser) might help push the discussion forward since public pressure to do "something about guns" is a powerful political motivator.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Here's another "common sense" proposal to gun control:

1. Arm every citizen (who can lawfully own a firearm) and encourage them to learn how to shoot. Alan Simpson once said "Where I come from, gun control means a steady aim".
2. For citizens that cannot be armed (children, elderly, infirmed, etc.) ensure that they are in a secure environment. This means controlled access to schools, hospitals, assisted living and other such places. Armed security in place. Budget for it at the Federal level.
3. Enforce laws that are already on the books.
4. And finally, if you commit a crime with a firearm (not kill someone, just commit a crime with a gun) - and are found guilty of the crime by a jury of your peers - you receive the death penalty. Fast-track any appeals, and unless overturned proceed with sentencing.

Watch how gun violence drops off. It won't get rid of all of it, but it will get rid of those who flaunt the use of firearms. You don't need to touch the 2nd Amendment to do any of this.

Yeah. Just throw more guns in the mix. Fix gun violence by making it more accessible. Are you listening to yourself?

 

[runningmt]

Right because they won't resort to that if they don't have access to an AR style platform.

I don’t want anyone assuming what I’m “gunna do”

We don’t make laws, rules or regs for what people are “gunna do”

Only what they are doing, or have done

 

[VikingsGuy]

The founding fathers did not put " shall not be infringed" in any of the other amendments for a reason.

How is that different than "shall not be abridged", "shall make no law", "shall not be violated", "nor be deprived"? There is all kinds of cool 4 word snippets in the Bill of Rights - none of which change an absolute truth of constitutional law -- no right is absolute.

 

[SixPoint]

Agreed, but how many days after his birthday did he do the shooting? Would he still of had time if the process was longer? Would he still of been unstable if he had to be 21?

I am as sick of this as anyone on here. But making new gun laws to solve this isn’t going to help the root of the problem. We are very effective at killing people no matter what the tool is. Regulating tools to prevent it only shifts the tool that is used next time.

Yes, all good questions that need to be considered and I don't have the answers. I personally think more time to process and increasing maturity (or at least age) wouldn't hurt, but I really don't know. Thank you for the quality discussion.

 

[BuzzH]

I’m not particularly religious myself and I don’t believe morality can be legislatd, but it seems if there’s a pretty strong push in this country towards an intentional immoral, valueless, type of degeneracy and it is pushed by the side of the political spectrum that wants to see gun control in response to violence.
I can’t help but imagine that gender wokeism, racism, two years of fake paranoia, social isolation and masking of children, intentional destruction of the nuclear family, etc. is making anything better. These problems certainly aren’t caused by two parent households, promoting traditional, Christian values, hard work and decency.
Maybe your kid doesn’t need seven pharmaceuticals. Maybe he just needs to go split some firewood, and for his dad to beat his ass for lying and for his mom to make a nice dinner, for the family to all sit down and have together.
If someone’s daughter aspires to be a tik tok influencer making slutty dance videos instead of an electrical engineer or (gasp) a stay at home mom/wife, perhaps that’s a sign that somewhere things went a bit off the rails.

If its just recent how do you explain 2018 and 2019?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Since you mentioned it (although you said you weren’t going to), separation of church and state was even more important to the founders of this country than guns were, actually one of THE reasons for founding this country.


Plus…..I thought GOD was everywhere…..how can he be “taken out” of anything?

Just to be fair, I think not having a single state-sponsored Christian denomination was bigger on their mind than the separation of faith-based organizations from the operation of the state. "no law respecting an establishment of religion[establishment best read as formation/creation], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" does not actually say separation of church and state - that is a later developed extension of the 1A. One which I support, but just want to stick to the text.

 

[Randi]

I agree


. 2020 had 45220 gun deaths. 54% suicide, 43% murder, 3% accidents or 13.6 fatalities by a firearm per 100,000. Some have already started saying it is the highest of all time. Yes and no. It is, but not percentage of population wise, as the population has increased since 1974, therefore 1974 is still the highest year ever percentage wise at 16.3 per 100,000.

Also, only ( and one is to many, but ) 513 of the 45220, were "mass muuders" ( 4 or more per incident )

In 2020 the highest age group suffering with mental health issues were 18-29, which, age group, I fall into. Having personal experience with several who became depressed and/or anxious during the covid lock down, it was far more prevalent in those without a family to support, guide, teach them, how to navigate through tough times.

IMHO---All firearm deaths are sad, be it murder or suicide, and the mass murder of the children in Texas is heartbreaking , at the very least, but in my humble opinion "Guns" are not the problem that we need to be addressing.

Legal gun purchases are at an all time high and leading the way in those purchases are women. Among that group, "Women", women of color are outpacing white women in purchasing handguns.

Better mental health programs, stricter laws for those arrested with an illegal firearm ( regardless of the crime they committed ) . Right now, the defunding of the police, bail leniency, probation instead of jail, low jail sentences are contributing to higher crime, not gun ownership

Respectively submitted

Enforce the current guns laws on the books first before making new ones. There have been 14 school shootings that have claimed 4 or more lives since 1999, the total of these attacks have totaled 169 lives lost. In Chicago from January 1, 2021 to January 10, 2022 276 children under the age of 16 were killed, yet there is no outrage by news outlets.

I agree with Scott85 AND in response to a couple of inquires ( Do I really believe what I posted in my post above about no more new gun laws ) Yes !

Criminals have no fear today, as defunding the police has put fewer officers on the streets. Judges have allowed criminals released with no bail, as well as given them probation instead of jail time. If there are no real consequence for their actions, a criminal has less to fear in committing a crime. All crimes need to be addressed more harshly than they are today, but if it is a crime involving a gun, there should be a minimum of 15 to 25 years. I hear people all the time say "get the guns off the street" and I say "get the criminals using guns of the street--and keep them off !"

Again, respectively submitted