A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[SAJ-99]

But I think you have to take away the MOTIVATION from the perpetrators of these events. They likely want to make an impact, a splash as they go out.

I really don’t know if that is the motivation.
I get your point, but does learning more about these people make it easier to see the signs before an incident occurs?

Here is YTD data. It is just sad.

 

[mtmiller]

4. Ban the media from mentioning the creeps names. No perceived glory for them.

What is that Amendment just before the regulated militia one?
Snarky trope.
Sorry, not sorry.

 

[SixPoint]

My 1928 Remington model 24 22 long rifle is a semi automatic. How would this constitute needing a permit? How would you expect law makers to know the difference and apply it where it’s enforceable? As much as I want to like your post on the suppression part, the first part is almost impossible.

I was considering this while commuting to the office this morning. I own numerous semi auto pistols (including the one I carry every day), shotguns, and like you 22 rifles, and I would not include these in my previous statement of needing a permit. That being said how would we then define what firearms would meet those qualifications. I feel like anytime there is a hotly debated "definition" put in place the industry will then just make modifications so that folks can use a loophole to get the same product. Perhaps there could be an evolving list of every firearm ever manufactured specifying what is required to own/sell one? I guess definitions would still need to be in place to break out the list so maybe that's a no go. How about semi auto rifles that have: high capacity detachable magazines and shoot centerfire rounds...?

 

[BucksnDucks]

I appreciate VK and other putting forth the time and thoughts on the subject. I've participated in similar discussions in classroom settings, one thing I found useful is to identify the "problem" then address how the "solution" could apply.

Are mass shootings with rifles the problem? Or the general proliferation of "gun violence" in major cities? I believe the two are vastly different and would need very different solutions. Although, the one overarching commonality between the two perpetrators is a complete disregard for any laws.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

How about we start with how many of these mass shootings may have been prevented if government did their job? Many of the mass shooters were known, interviewed and cut loose even with social media posted violence statements? Red Flag laws go after folks on far less but yet the FBI, state and local law enforcement and even school officials fail to do whatever is required to restrict these known violent people? This is not a general across the board LEO bash so don't go down that road, this is directed at those who investigated and turned these people loose. We have a process that identifies high risk potential shooters, they are interviewed and yet this system fails to protect us. If someone trips a potential high risk shooter red flag, how the hell are they being turned loose?

We need answers on this egregious system failure before anything else can be considered IMO.

That's kinda the issue though right? Say you were an FBI deputy director with a time machine, you have to follow the law you can't act as a vigilantly. What could you actually do?

You can't hold people if they haven't commit a crime, you cant commit them indefinitely most states a MD can put someone under a 72 hour hold max. Minors can't purchase guns legally, so red flag rules don't apply. You can't subject a parent to a red flag law because of a child even in the states that allow them. etc etc etc.

The point you are making comes up a lot but any legislative fixes are usually vigorously opposed.

What would you have a LEO do?

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

-Create a sin tax on violent media to fund mental health intervention and treatment.

Without accountability in this area, I feel like the rest of it is borderline pointless.

Violence is part of the human condition, and it triggers core physiological and psychological responses in our bodies and brains. I believe excessive violent media and video games, much like excessive pornography, desensitize and build dysfunctional positive reinforcing responses, that end up short circuiting inhibitions and empathy.

 

[VikingsGuy]

LOL. Here is some snark. All pushback seems to fall into one or all of these categories
1) the government will mess it up because it is so bad at everything. We should get rid of the government.
2) I’m a law abiding citizen so I shouldn’t be asked to do anything. Being lazy is my right.
3) it’s all mental health. We should fix that first…but I’m not paying for that.
4) it might save a few people but won’t fix the problem. People will just use sticks to commit crimes.

VG I think you put out a lot of good ideas and I could agree on almost all. But it will be the same, rinse and repeat arguments on why people want what is best for them and someone else should bear the burden. And unfortunately we will do this again after the next incident. Sorry for the snark, but I’m disappointed in Americans as a group in there unwillingness to talk about and address these problems.

Not at all snark in my view - a very succinct summary of the go-to excuses for inaction.

Of course, there is a 5).

5) What don't you understand about, "shall not be infringed"

 

[brownbear932008]

Rant: There's a lot of have-not's in America. We make it really difficult for people to participate in our society in a pro-social manner. We structure our laws to destroy families, keep people poor, keep people from working good jobs, keep kids from being raised by their parents, keep people from living, working, learning in a safe and healthy places, and disenfranchise people at the ballot box. If we look towards a bigger government as the fix to these issues, we get exactly what we deserve - inefficient, corrupt, cancerous, money-pit.

This right here we can't fix anything until we fix broken families. No law can be written or regulation passed that will be effective until families can come together as one again. So many broken and struggling people in our Country.
There is another major thing that needs to happen as well and I won't mention it because people are sensitive to the subject. But when that one thing was taken out of everything possible in this Country we began to rot as a society.

I sat at a funeral just yesterday and the pastor preached hard on it. As I looked around at family members and friends of the family I could see at least 8-10 people that I personally knew of in the boat he preached about. We have to pick people back up that we have left behind. Our grand parents didn't just throw in the towel and say "he isn't going to do anything". They actually focused more attention to the weak link and helped them along. Sometimes not so easily either. We have a lot of issues in this Country today, mental illness , drug addiction (both legal and illegal), access to military/law enforcement grade weapons, hell I could name a hundred but you get the point.

I can tell you one thing. I'm sick and tired of watching innocent children die when all they did was get up, go to school to be with their friends, and return in a coffin. For all you guys screaming "shall not infringe" and your NRA banter you should be ashamed with being so short sighted. I hope you never have to pick up a child or family member killed by gun violence. I have and it's not fun. Eventually it will hit you and yours as well over time, that I promise you. Nobody is immune from this violence and it hits when you don't expect it to.

As far as meaningful firearm regulations I don't know if there is any. Even if something does come around (which I highly doubt) it will take 50 years for it to make a true difference with the amount of firearms now on the streets.

 

[Addicting]

How about semi auto rifles that have: high capacity detachable magazines and shoot centerfire rounds...?

A sawed off 12 guage with buckshot is just as deadly if not more. Just not as cool, black, or as scary in the media. There is no enforceable win down that rabbit hole.

I will concede there isn’t a need for high capacity Mag for the general public.

 

[VikingsGuy]

We are number 1 in the world for single parent households. 80% of people incarcerated come from a single parent household. I do t believe we can legislate our way out of this.
Change will have to come from within these marginalized communities.

I’ve been asked before to do some work with Young Life and other groups. I don’t feel like I can say I’m to busy anymore…

I think the question should be functional families - whether that is one or two parents. I don't think living in a home where alcoholic dad beats mom and kids everytime the Packers lose a game is inviting a great social order either.

 

[brocksw]

@VikingsGuy I tip my hat to you for starting this contentious thread and self moderating it in a way to keep the discussion civil and productive. Another example of HT and it's members making HT topshelf stuff. One doesn't need to look far to find an example of the opposite.

 

[BucksnDucks]

I see several suggestions that are currently law in CA, like mag capacity. Do those of you making these Nationwide suggestions believe the CA laws have stopped any mass shootings?

 

[Tradewind]

You want to stop school shootings? even the Progressive types who dont want to make schools a hard target can get behind this

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[4ohSick]

A sawed off 12 guage with buckshot is just as deadly if not more. Just not as cool, black, or as scary in the media. There is no enforceable win down that rabbit hole.

I will concede there isn’t a need for high capacity Mag for the general public.

False equivalency. It's just as deadly for the ~4 shells in the tubular magazine. Then the shooter has to reload and unless they're well-trained that's slow in a shotgun. The range is also limited, which enables police with handguns to effectively engage the shooter.

 

[A207X2]

Not at all snark in my view - a very succinct summary of the go-to excuses for inaction.

Of course, there is a 5).

5) What don't you understand about, "shall not be infringed"

What DO you understand about the 2nd Amendment? If you cannot understand the basis for it, then we're all just tilting at windmills here. We'll go over all of this again at the next mass shooting. Good discussion though... SMH

 

[HONEYBADGER]

Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts. I do not intend to be argumentative, but do want to respectfully push back on this approach.

Please point to a single personal right/liberty that is not subject to some govt restriction? Free speech - nope, freedom of religion - nope, search and seizure - nope, right to vote - nope (think felons), human life - nope (think death penalty) etc etc etc. We can never progress in any constitutional topic if folks don't even accept the general framework that has governed it since the founders. Our founding father's absolutely supported laws that infringed speech when it came to libel/slander/profanity/pornography etc etc for example. There were many examples of gun restrictions in the thirteen colonies along the way and in later states as we moved west.

I get the rejection of the proposed limitations if you think they would be too invasive, too unlikely to have a positive effect, too difficult to effectively manage, too expensive, or any number of other objections. But the objection cannot be that zero limitations are demanded by the constitution. I don't know of a single justice in the last 250 yrs or a single serious scholar that has taken such an extreme view on the Bill of Rights.

The founding fathers did not put " shall not be infringed" in any of the other amendments for a reason.

 

[SixPoint]

A sawed off 12 guage with buckshot is just as deadly if not more. Just not as cool, black, or as scary in the media. There is no enforceable win down that rabbit hole.

I will concede there isn’t a need for high capacity Mag for the general public.

True, however there is this bizarre new culture and glorification that has been built around the AR style rifles that seems to draw these lunatics into using them for horrible acts. I hate to say it but I'm not real sure the average joe needs to be able to walk into a sporting goods store and buy one of these the same day. For lawful gun owners and enthusiasts who appreciate these rifles, I want them to be able to purchase and shoot them, but I would like to see a more thorough and longer process in place to weed out the impulsive and mentally ill individuals. The fact that the shooter in Texas went in the day after his 18th birthday and bought one is pretty troubling to me.

 

[Addicting]

False equivalency. It's just as deadly for the ~4 shells in the tubular magazine. Then the shooter has to reload and unless they're well-trained that's slow in a shotgun. The range is also limited, which enables police with handguns to effectively engage the shooter.

Respectfully disagree. By the time they respond it’s a mute point. There is a reason the Military had shotguns as part of its arsenal. Buckshot sent down a crowded hallway would be absolutely deadly, any gun in a closed classroom of elementary kids is just as deadly.

We teach them to hide and not fight back. No matter how slow the reloading process is a gun contact wound to the head is 100% fatal 100% of the time when there is intent to kill.

 

[runningmt]

There is another major thing that needs to happen as well and I won't mention it because people are sensitive to the subject. But when that one thing was taken out of everything possible in this Country we began to rot as a society.

Since you mentioned it (although you said you weren’t going to), separation of church and state was even more important to the founders of this country than guns were, actually one of THE reasons for founding this country.


Plus…..I thought GOD was everywhere…..how can he be “taken out” of anything?

 

[woods89]

I think the question should be functional families - whether that is one or two parents. I don't think living in a home where alcoholic dad beats mom and kids everytime the Packers lose a game is inviting a great social order either.

This is certainly true. The only thing I would add is that, while many single moms put their heart and soul into making the best of their situation, it can be difficult for them to understand the needs of their sons. Some do a great job of recognizing this and make sure their boys have some responsible role models to associate with. I think that takes a very intentional effort, though.
I know that if I was raising my girls by myself, I'd probably struggle with the same things.
Great thread! I agree with some things being discussed and disagree with others, but it's making me think.