4 year olds with guns

[rhomas]

That was one of the points I made about why I got involved in this thread back on page 5, I believe.

BTW, I read the Illinois regs to mean that the hunter safety course wasn't mandatory for the apprentice license, regardless of the age of the hunter, as long as he is accompanied by a licensed hunter, who would have to meet the regular licensing requirements. Any other input other than the previous battle as to how others interpreted it?

 

[Sytes]

edited... wasted time.

 

[noharleyyet]

noharley, what you said, plus 10.

Now back to the original topic. I have a question for the original poster, why the title?
"4 year olds with guns"
I read then re-read the attached article and could not find mention of any 4 year olds hunting at all.
There was however, mention of a 10 year old, who would, by the way be two and a half times as old as the title refers to.

If I am missing where the 4 year olds and other toddlers are mentioned, please point it out to me so I can be corrected. Or give us a hint why someone would used such sensationalized wording tactics on
a forum query looking for the opinion of his fellow sportsmen.
Thanks,

...to elicit the response you want.

 

[huntme]

Although I agree with many of the statements above, that before 12 years old is too young for many children, I have two babies and would like to be able to decide for myself when it's appropriate for my children to start hunting based on their abilities/desires, not a state mandate.

then by all means take your kids hunting,but,by no means give them a gun,my father taught me and my brothers how to shoot when we were young,around age 7 to 10 years old,but we were not allowed to carry a rifle untill we were 12 years old,then only with my father being there with us,no 6 year old child is mature enough to carry something in his hand that could kill him or me or you,in less than a second,what 9 or 10 year old do any one of you know that still will not throw a fit,when they do not get there own way,i sure don't.
so no way should a 9 or 10 year old be carring a high powered rifle,my father told me when i was around 13 years old that anyone who points a gun at you,wants to KILL you,so if im out hunting,and one of your children is throwing a tantrum,and throws his firearm on the ground,and it goes off, killing me or my wife,or i am walking in the woods hunting and your child,while throwing a tantrum,inadvertenly points his gun in the wrong direction,say right at me,and i see the gun pointed at me,i will have seconds to make a decision on how to handle the threat,i guess what im saying is your kid might die right in front of you,then me and you might have to live with your decision to let a person that young carry a gun,and my decision to pull the trigger on my high powered hunting rifle,or my high powered pistole,and end the young persons life.
no one should ever have to make a decision like that,and children are unpredictable at best,we all need to remember that GUNS ARE NOT TOYS,and children play with toys,not guns.
that is my take.:hump:

 

[spook12]

then by all means take your kids hunting,but,by no means give them a gun,my father taught me and my brothers how to shoot when we were young,around age 7 to 10 years old,but we were not allowed to carry a rifle untill we were 12 years old,then only with my father being there with us,no 6 year old child is mature enough to carry something in his hand that could kill him or me or you,in less than a second,what 9 or 10 year old do any one of you know that still will not throw a fit,when they do not get there own way,i sure don't.
so no way should a 9 or 10 year old be carring a high powered rifle,my father told me when i was around 13 years old that anyone who points a gun at you,wants to KILL you,so if im out hunting,and one of your children is throwing a tantrum,and throws his firearm on the ground,and it goes off, killing me or my wife,or i am walking in the woods hunting and your child,while throwing a tantrum,inadvertenly points his gun in the wrong direction,say right at me,and i see the gun pointed at me,i will have seconds to make a decision on how to handle the threat,i guess what im saying is your kid might die right in front of you,then me and you might have to live with your decision to let a person that young carry a gun,and my decision to pull the trigger on my high powered hunting rifle,or my high powered pistole,and end the young persons life.
no one should ever have to make a decision like that,and children are unpredictable at best,we all need to remember that GUNS ARE NOT TOYS,and children play with toys,not guns.
that is my take.:hump:

Could you provide a link to any story, that even resembles this wonderful work of fiction?

 

[Topgun 30-06]

"Could you provide a link to any story, that even resembles this wonderful work of fiction?"

***Glad you put that up first because it really left me shaking my head too!

 

[huntme]

Could you provide a link to any story, that even resembles this wonderful work of fiction?

i sure hope it is fiction,because i would neaver want this to ever happend,no i can not give you a place to find a true story about something like this,it would be a tragedy,to say the least,now you cant tell me you have neaver seen a 6 or 7 year old throw a tantrum?
you cant say you have neaver heard of a 6 or 7 or even a 8 year old kill a friend or relitive,because he pointed his fathers gun at the friend or relitive,can you?
kids do those kind of things,more than you know,they are not mature enough to handle that kind of responsiblity,and carrying a loaded 30-06 around in the woods can be a hard job at times even for a adult male or female,so what would make you think a youngster of 6 or 7 years old would not at one time or another drop it on the ground,and have it go off?
and as for the rest of my statement,if you walked up on someone be it a kid or an adult,that was pointing a gun at you,with his or her finger on the trigger,what would be your reaction?
and keep in mind that you might have only seconds to make a decision between that person killig you,or you killing that person.
it is not alot of time,you can teach a 12 year old the fundamentals of proper shooting tech,and handleing tech,and he or she will get the safety issues of what you are teaching him or her,but a 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 year old,most times will not,you do not have to see someone chest cavity get blown out to understand what a 180 grain spitzer bullet can do to a person say at 300 yards do you?
i sure do not,so you can insult me,laugh at me,even call me crazy,but you and i both know,that a child of that age should not be walking around with a highpowered rifle in his hand,because he or she is not mature enough to use it,carry it,or hold it properly,and if you do think a 6 or 7 or even an 8 year old is mature enough,good for you!
because i sure do not.

 

[huntme]

"Could you provide a link to any story, that even resembles this wonderful work of fiction?"

***Glad you put that up first because it really left me shaking my head too!

you are on line right now,you look for one,you did not bother to even think about what was being said,kids these days kill each other all the time,and dont tell me you have not read about that in a news paper,or on the news,in fact they even sometimes do there parrents in,can you tell me that does not happen?
i know 10 year olds that can drive cars,and they are good at it,so should they have a drivers licence?
why dont we give children drivers licences?
i would answer that for you ,but then you would have to use your head for something besides a hat rack.
and just to let you know,some of those kids i know could pass the written test,and the drivers as well,so if they can do that,why should they not be able to drive legally on the streets?
under the same principle as driving a car,you not only need to be able to drive the car well,you allso need to be mature enough to follow the trafic laws,and be mature enough to know the difference between right and wrong,wouldant you agree?

 

[Topgun 30-06]

huntme---No sense being nasty as we are adults here trying to have meaningful conversation and, yes, I did think about this a lot! I'll have to disagree with you on this one for the most part. This Bill leaves it up to the parent to determine if their child is ready and not the child! I started hunting at the age of 6 with a .22/410 O/U and at that age I was safer than one of my 75 year old friends whom I've threatened to quit hunting with several times because of his lousy gun safety habits. That gun I carried at that young age after taking one of the first NRA hunters ed classes ever offered back in the early 50s would have done some pretty big damage at close range just like a centerfire at longer distances. That course left a lasting impression with me and I can still remember the name of the Instructor I had for that class 60years ago, which is damn good since at my age now I'm lucky to remember my own sometimes!

 

[huntme]

huntme---No sense being nasty as we are adults here trying to have meaningful conversation and, yes, I did think about this a lot! I'll have to disagree with you on this one for the most part. This Bill leaves it up to the parent to determine if their child is ready and not the child! I started hunting at the age of 6 with a .22/410 O/U and at that age I was safer than one of my 75 year old friends whom I've threatened to quit hunting with several times because of his lousy gun safety habits. That gun I carried at that young age after taking one of the first NRA hunters ed classes ever offered back in the early 50s would have done some pretty big damage at close range just like a centerfire at longer distances. That course left a lasting impression with me and I can still remember the name of the Instructor I had for that class 60years ago, which is damn good since at my age now I'm lucky to remember my own sometimes!

should the parrent decide when his child is ready to hunt,YES,should the child carry a gun at age 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10,no,because when said child is hunting,and carring a gun,then said child risk not only his life,but mine,yours,and every one elses,because his maturity level is not developed enough to handle that responsiblityeven if the parrent thinks so or not.
would you want to hunt with a 4 or 5 or 6 year old during say deer season,knowing that behind you is a child carring a -06 with a round in the chamber,even if his father was back there with him?
i can guess your answer to that question but who knows,i could be wrong.
and my rudeness is inexcusable,you are right about that one,please except my appology topgun.:W:

 

[huntme]

should the parrent decide when his child is ready to hunt,YES,should the child carry a gun at age 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10,no,because when said child is hunting,and carring a gun,then said child risk not only his life,but mine,yours,and every one elses,because his maturity level is not developed enough to handle that responsiblityeven if the parrent thinks so or not.
would you want to hunt with a 4 or 5 or 6 year old during say deer season,knowing that behind you is a child carring a -06 with a round in the chamber,even if his father was back there with him?
i can guess your answer to that question but who knows,i could be wrong.
and my rudeness is inexcusable,you are right about that one,please except my appology topgun.:W:

and i do believe that we hunters,all of us should set the age limit for a youngster to carry a gun,and then tell our elected officials,what age that should be,not just the parrents,or our elected officials,but we the people who live in that state,and hunt in that state.:hump:

 

[Topgun 30-06]

"and i do believe that we hunters,all of us should set the age limit for a youngster to carry a gun,and then tell our elected officials,what age that should be,not just the parrents,or our elected officials,but we the people who live in that state,and hunt in that state."

No real argument there because that is basicly what you guys should be doing out there right now by contacting your legislators as to whether you want this passed or not. If they do what is proper, they will listen to the majority of persons who contact them and vote accordingly. To answer that one question you asked of me a couple posts ago, I do not hunt with anyone who has a round in the chamber no matter their age. We made it a rule a long time ago that when in camp or together that no round is in the chamber until we part company and when we get back together it comes out. It's just really a simple, safe way to avoid problems. When bird hunting with shotguns it's obviously different, but normally guys are far enough apart that if something wrong happens you're far enough that no damage is done unless your name is Chaney!!!

 

[schmalts]

then by all means take your kids hunting,but,by no means give them a gun,:

So, if a father has his 8 year old son and sits with him on a hillside, and a big doe walk by in a over quota area, and the father takes his gun, hands it to his son, helps him get the bipod set up and whispers to him to chamber a round, wait for the deer to stop moving and stop for a broadside shot, and to take his time, do what they practiced and talked about...... This is so big of a danger to whome??? This kind of thing is why the mentor program works. Kids are not shooting adults in the states this has been made the rule. And I am with NoHarley, the title of this first post is very misleading if you did not read the bill. Not saying it is a perfect bill, I would change the part that reads voice contact to arms reach but at least look at this and think about what it could be, not what others want you to think it is. The reality, no 4 year old is going to be shooting at deer.

 

[174in]

So, if a father has his 8 year old son and sits with him on a hillside, and a big doe walk by in a over quota area, and the father takes his gun, hands it to his son, helps him get the bipod set up and whispers to him to chamber a round, wait for the deer to stop moving and stop for a broadside shot, and to take his time, do what they practiced and talked about...... This is so big of a danger to whome??? This kind of thing is why the mentor program works. Kids are not shooting adults in the states this has been made the rule. And I am with NoHarley, the title of this first post is very misleading if you did not read the bill. Not saying it is a perfect bill, I would change the part that reads voice contact to arms reach but at least look at this and think about what it could be, not what others want you to think it is. The reality, no 4 year old is going to be shooting at deer.

IMO you are right on Schmalts.

 

[cowboy]

As a parent, grandparent, and a coach for many years of kids 8-15 yrs old I have been exposed to many kids that were physically and maturity wise ready to handle a firearm at a much younger age than others. As a parent you will never change your mind on what you feel is best for your child or what he/she is capable of.

The bottom line on this bill is it really doesn't make one ounce of difference what we think. If you have an opinion one way or another I would suggest that you contact your legislator and see where the R's and the D's stand on this because those clowns up in Helena have already shown their colors that they are going to vote straight party line and quite frankly they don't care what anyone thinks.

The good news about this whole long discussion is - there are some damn good parents in this bunch that really care about kids and kids issues, and that gives me a little hope that maybe this crazy world we live in can continue on with some degree of family values.

When the smoke all clears, it won't make any difference if your a resident or a NR, if you were for it or against it. It will be what the majority party line stance on it is - that 's the world today, welcome to good old democracy in the USA.

 

[1_pointer]

So, if a father has his 8 year old son and sits with him on a hillside, and a big doe walk by in a over quota area, and the father takes his gun, hands it to his son, helps him get the bipod set up and whispers to him to chamber a round, wait for the deer to stop moving and stop for a broadside shot, and to take his time, do what they practiced and talked about...... This is so big of a danger to whome??? This kind of thing is why the mentor program works. Kids are not shooting adults in the states this has been made the rule. And I am with NoHarley, the title of this first post is very misleading if you did not read the bill. Not saying it is a perfect bill, I would change the part that reads voice contact to arms reach but at least look at this and think about what it could be, not what others want you to think it is. The reality, no 4 year old is going to be shooting at deer.

Perzactly! Just because a kid can harvest an animal does not mean that he has to be the one in possesion/control of the firearm at all times. Similarly, just because one chooses to hunt tough to access areas doesn't mean that has to be the case when you take your kids. If the kids can't hack a 5 mile hike up the mountain for a deer, take them to hunt somewhere else. Not all western hunts require Herculean effort. However, I think it should be the parents decision to make as to how old a child should be.

As far as the "right of passage" angle, do you really think it's any less memorable for a 10yr old than a 12 yr old?

IMO, many of the arguments, especially those about safety, made against this bill are straw men. You can't legislate away idiocy.

Respectfully submitted,
The Hunttalk Resident Dumbass

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

So, if a father has his 8 year old son and sits with him on a hillside, and a big doe walk by in a over quota area, and the father takes his gun, hands it to his son, helps him get the bipod set up and whispers to him to chamber a round, wait for the deer to stop moving and stop for a broadside shot, and to take his time, do what they practiced and talked about...... This is so big of a danger to whome??? This kind of thing is why the mentor program works. Kids are not shooting adults in the states this has been made the rule. And I am with NoHarley, the title of this first post is very misleading if you did not read the bill. Not saying it is a perfect bill, I would change the part that reads voice contact to arms reach but at least look at this and think about what it could be, not what others want you to think it is. The reality, no 4 year old is going to be shooting at deer.

I also totally agree with you Schmalts.

 

[mtlion]

Could you provide a link to any story, that even resembles this wonderful work of fiction?

Deadeye Dick.

Kurt Vonnegut.

 

[Straight Arrow]

A youth 11 years of age who will reach 12 years of age by January of the following year and can show proof of having completed an approved hunter education course at the time of purchase/application may purchase a hunting license in Montana. This is a thoroughly vetted and reasonable regulation. It does not preclude a parent from taking a younger child hunting to observe, learn, and enjoy hunting.

This is a well-accepted and successful provision for young hunters. The system is not broken ... why try to "fix" it for those relatively few parents who feel their children are exceptionally mature and physically stronger at a younger age??!

Part of the answer is evident in the fact that even that six-foot, 170 pound 13 year-old still has to mature somewhat more to qualify for a driver's license ... even if the proud parent wants and desires it sooner. Wants and desires do not constitute a valid need, requirement, or constitutional right.

 

[noharleyyet]

Perzactly! Just because a kid can harvest an animal does not mean that he has to be the one in possesion/control of the firearm at all times. Similarly, just because one chooses to hunt tough to access areas doesn't mean that has to be the case when you take your kids. If the kids can't hack a 5 mile hike up the mountain for a deer, take them to hunt somewhere else. Not all western hunts require Herculean effort. However, I think it should be the parents decision to make as to how old a child should be.

As far as the "right of passage" angle, do you really think it's any less memorable for a 10yr old than a 12 yr old?

IMO, many of the arguments, especially those about safety, made against this bill are straw men. You can't legislate away idiocy.

Respectfully submitted,
The Hunttalk Resident Dumbass

...nor mandate morality.