cjcj
New member
The north Kaibab is a huge Condor breeding/study area and is "critical" to their come back from near extinction.
Your eatin lead?
- Thread starter cjcj
- Start date
noharleyyet
Well-known member
CJ...just think of all the copper bracelets you could be saving the condors from wearing.
Ten Bears
New member
I too have seen/experienced poor expansion performance from the old style Barnes "X" bullets.
cjcj
New member
Well i have never shot or used the "old style"... but the new ones worked as good as any lead i have used. 1 shot kills with very good expansion... i will have a pic/example in a couple of days. 
snake river rufus
New member
While I don't want to see anything become extinct, understanding the theory of evolution tells me that these things are supposed to happen. Now how many are in the area?
Ten Bears
New member
If I were given some TSX bullets, I'd give them a testing. Just because the old style didn't work right for me doesn't mean I wouldn't try the new ones. I was just disappointed with the old ones, and I still have most of the box just collecting dust.
cjcj
New member
Not too many condors left.
Condor Numbers (updated 12/8/05)
Total population 273
Captive population 146
Wild population 127
Arizona population (includes two 2005 chicks) 59
California population 55
Baja population 13
Condor Numbers (updated 12/8/05)
Total population 273
Captive population 146
Wild population 127
Arizona population (includes two 2005 chicks) 59
California population 55
Baja population 13
snake river rufus
New member
Out of all that only one died as the result of eating a lead bullet
cjcj
New member
Well i think there "main" issue with lead is thin egg shells and low birth rates...
cjcj
New member
more condor stuff
California Condor Recovery
Additional California Condor pages
- Condors and Lead
California condors (Gymnogyps californianus) are the largest flying land bird in North America. Condors are members of New World vultures, Family Cathartidae, and are opportunistic scavengers that feed primarily on large dead mammals such as deer, elk, bighorn sheep, range cattle, and horses. Condors have a wingspan of 9 ½ feet, and can weigh up to 25 pounds as adults. Using thermal updrafts, condors can soar and glide up to 50 miles per hour and travel 100 miles or more per day in search of food. California condors are not sexually dimorphic like a majority of raptors, i.e., males and females are identical in size and plumage. Adult condors are primarily black except for bleach white feathers in a triangle-shape pattern beneath their wings (underwing covert feathers). These patches are highly visible when condors are flying overhead and are a key identification characteristic. Adult condors have pinkish-orange featherless heads, ivory colored bills, and the sclera of the eye is red. Juvenile condors are also mostly black with underwing coverts that are mottled gray in color also but triangular shaped like adults. Juvenile condors have dark colored heads until they are about 3 to 4 years old when the head starts to turn pink. The juvenile bill is black and changes to an ivory as the bird matures.
Condors are long-lived species with low reproductive rates. They can live up to 60 years in the wild, and become sexually mature at six or seven years of age. Condors mate for life and females lay a single egg, about five inches in length and weighing around 10 ounces, every other year. Male and female condors share incubation shifts. Condors are cavity-nesting birds. Most nest sites have been found in caves, on rock ledges, or in tree cavities. Condors do not build nests; instead, the egg is deposited on the floor of the cave, ledge, or tree. The egg hatches after about 56 days of incubation and both parents share responsibilities for feeding the nestling by regurgitation. Young condors fledge at five to six months of age, but may stay in the nesting area for up to one year.
In prehistoric times, condors ranged from Canada to Mexico, across the southern United States to Florida, and on the east coast in New York. During this period, condors were a common resident of the Grand Canyon based on bones, feathers and eggshells found in caves where they nested. A dramatic range reduction occurred about 10,000 years ago, coinciding with the late Pleistocene extinction of large mammals such as mastodon, giant sloth, camels, and saber-toothed cats that condors fed on. By the time Europeans arrived in western North America, condors had retreated to a stronghold along the Pacific coast from British Columbia to Baja California. The birds managed to maintain a strong population perhaps due to large sea mammals that washed upon shore, however, the settlement of the west, shooting, poisoning from lead and DDT, egg collecting, and general habitat degradation began to take a heavy toll. Between the mid- 1880s and 1924, there were scattered reports of condors in Arizona with the last sighting near Williams Arizona in 1924. By the late 1930s, all remaining condors were found only in California and by 1982, the total population had dwindled to just 22 birds. The only hope was to begin captive breeding of California condors and to initiate reintroduction of the species. Reintroduction of captive bred condors began in 1992 in California, and 1996 in Arizona.
Program Goal:
In order to be downlisted from Endangered to Threatened, The Recovery Goals of the California Condor Program are as follows:
- Maintenance of at least 2 wild populations
- Maintenance of one captive population
- Each population must:
-number at least 150 individuals
-must contain at least 15 breeding pairs
-be reproductively self sustaining
-have a positive rate of population growth
- Non-captive populations must:
-be spatially disjunct and non-interacting
-contain descendents from each of the 14 founders
Habitat:
Condors are cavity-nesting species that require caves, ledges, or large trees in order to nest. High perches are necessary for roosting, as well as to create the strong updrafts required for lift into flight. Open grasslands or savannahs are important to condors while searching for food. In Arizona, condors are found at elevations between 2,000-6,500 feet, and the reintroduction site is located in the northern part of the state on Vermilion Cliffs
The Vermilion cliffs are rugged sandstone cliffs located on public land administered by the Bureau of Land Management. These cliffs are located on the Paria Plateau and provide the necessary remoteness, ridges, ledges, and caves favored by condors. The Paria Plateau is typified by Great Basin Conifer Woodland, dominated by juniper (Juniperus spp.) and pinyon (Pinus spp.) Great Basin Desertscrub occurs along the Vermilion Cliffs and is dominated by sagebrush (Artemisia spp.) and rabbitbrush (Chrysothamnus spp.). Species diversity is low, with shrubs occurring more frequently than woodland or forest.
Distribution:
Current condor distribution is limited to three major reintroduction sites. These include reserves in California located in Ventura, Santa Barbara, Kern, Monterey and San Luis Obispo counties. In northern Arizona, condors are located primarily near the Vermilion cliffs and Grand Canyon. A third reintroduction area was added in 2002, which is located in a remote area of Baja California, Mexico.
To view the condor release site in Arizona, drive north on Highway 89 out of Flagstaff, Arizona. Turn left onto Highway 89A toward Jacob Lake and the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Drive approximately 40 miles (past Marble Canyon, Vermilion Cliffs, and Cliff Dwellers), turn right onto House Rock Valley Road (BLM Road 1065) just past the House Rock Valley Chain Up Area. Travel approximately 2-3 miles to a condor kiosk and shaded viewing area on the right. Atop the cliffs to your east is the location where condors are released, and a good place to see condors year round. In winter months, condors frequent the Colorado River corridor near Marble Canyon and in summer months, condors are seen frequently at the South Rim of the Grand Canyon.
Status:
California condors are one of the most endangered birds in the world. They were placed on the federal endangered species list in 1967. In Arizona, reintroduction was conducted under a special provision of the Endangered Species Act that allows for the designation of a "nonessential experimental" population. Under this designation (referred to as the 10(j) rule) the protections for an endangered species are relaxed, providing greater flexibility for management of a reintroduction program.
Conservation Needs:
As a result of the continued downward spiral of the condor population in the 1980's, one of the longest wildlife recovery efforts ever attempted began. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service began a captive breeding program in 1980, teaming with the Los Angeles Zoo and the San Diego Wild Animal Park. In 1987, a controversial decision was made to bring all remaining condors (22 individuals) into captivity and the last wild bird was captured on April 19, 1987.
All hope for condor recovery was now placed on captive breeding programs, and the task was formidable. Because recruitment into the population is very low, captive breeding techniques were developed in which eggs are removed as they are laid, usually causing the captive condors to lay a second and sometimes third egg. The "extra" eggs are incubated and chicks are raised by caretakers using a hand puppet shaped like a parent condor head. The puppet prevents the young condors from imprinting on people. Condor chicks that are not raised by puppets, are raised by their parent birds. As a result of captive breeding, condor populations have increased dramatically from 22 birds in 1987 to more than 250 birds in 2005.
California Condor Recovery
Additional California Condor pages
- Condors and Lead
California condors (Gymnogyps californianus) are the largest flying land bird in North America. Condors are members of New World vultures, Family Cathartidae, and are opportunistic scavengers that feed primarily on large dead mammals such as deer, elk, bighorn sheep, range cattle, and horses. Condors have a wingspan of 9 ½ feet, and can weigh up to 25 pounds as adults. Using thermal updrafts, condors can soar and glide up to 50 miles per hour and travel 100 miles or more per day in search of food. California condors are not sexually dimorphic like a majority of raptors, i.e., males and females are identical in size and plumage. Adult condors are primarily black except for bleach white feathers in a triangle-shape pattern beneath their wings (underwing covert feathers). These patches are highly visible when condors are flying overhead and are a key identification characteristic. Adult condors have pinkish-orange featherless heads, ivory colored bills, and the sclera of the eye is red. Juvenile condors are also mostly black with underwing coverts that are mottled gray in color also but triangular shaped like adults. Juvenile condors have dark colored heads until they are about 3 to 4 years old when the head starts to turn pink. The juvenile bill is black and changes to an ivory as the bird matures.
Condors are long-lived species with low reproductive rates. They can live up to 60 years in the wild, and become sexually mature at six or seven years of age. Condors mate for life and females lay a single egg, about five inches in length and weighing around 10 ounces, every other year. Male and female condors share incubation shifts. Condors are cavity-nesting birds. Most nest sites have been found in caves, on rock ledges, or in tree cavities. Condors do not build nests; instead, the egg is deposited on the floor of the cave, ledge, or tree. The egg hatches after about 56 days of incubation and both parents share responsibilities for feeding the nestling by regurgitation. Young condors fledge at five to six months of age, but may stay in the nesting area for up to one year.
In prehistoric times, condors ranged from Canada to Mexico, across the southern United States to Florida, and on the east coast in New York. During this period, condors were a common resident of the Grand Canyon based on bones, feathers and eggshells found in caves where they nested. A dramatic range reduction occurred about 10,000 years ago, coinciding with the late Pleistocene extinction of large mammals such as mastodon, giant sloth, camels, and saber-toothed cats that condors fed on. By the time Europeans arrived in western North America, condors had retreated to a stronghold along the Pacific coast from British Columbia to Baja California. The birds managed to maintain a strong population perhaps due to large sea mammals that washed upon shore, however, the settlement of the west, shooting, poisoning from lead and DDT, egg collecting, and general habitat degradation began to take a heavy toll. Between the mid- 1880s and 1924, there were scattered reports of condors in Arizona with the last sighting near Williams Arizona in 1924. By the late 1930s, all remaining condors were found only in California and by 1982, the total population had dwindled to just 22 birds. The only hope was to begin captive breeding of California condors and to initiate reintroduction of the species. Reintroduction of captive bred condors began in 1992 in California, and 1996 in Arizona.
Program Goal:
In order to be downlisted from Endangered to Threatened, The Recovery Goals of the California Condor Program are as follows:
- Maintenance of at least 2 wild populations
- Maintenance of one captive population
- Each population must:
-number at least 150 individuals
-must contain at least 15 breeding pairs
-be reproductively self sustaining
-have a positive rate of population growth
- Non-captive populations must:
-be spatially disjunct and non-interacting
-contain descendents from each of the 14 founders
Habitat:
Condors are cavity-nesting species that require caves, ledges, or large trees in order to nest. High perches are necessary for roosting, as well as to create the strong updrafts required for lift into flight. Open grasslands or savannahs are important to condors while searching for food. In Arizona, condors are found at elevations between 2,000-6,500 feet, and the reintroduction site is located in the northern part of the state on Vermilion Cliffs
The Vermilion cliffs are rugged sandstone cliffs located on public land administered by the Bureau of Land Management. These cliffs are located on the Paria Plateau and provide the necessary remoteness, ridges, ledges, and caves favored by condors. The Paria Plateau is typified by Great Basin Conifer Woodland, dominated by juniper (Juniperus spp.) and pinyon (Pinus spp.) Great Basin Desertscrub occurs along the Vermilion Cliffs and is dominated by sagebrush (Artemisia spp.) and rabbitbrush (Chrysothamnus spp.). Species diversity is low, with shrubs occurring more frequently than woodland or forest.
Distribution:
Current condor distribution is limited to three major reintroduction sites. These include reserves in California located in Ventura, Santa Barbara, Kern, Monterey and San Luis Obispo counties. In northern Arizona, condors are located primarily near the Vermilion cliffs and Grand Canyon. A third reintroduction area was added in 2002, which is located in a remote area of Baja California, Mexico.
To view the condor release site in Arizona, drive north on Highway 89 out of Flagstaff, Arizona. Turn left onto Highway 89A toward Jacob Lake and the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Drive approximately 40 miles (past Marble Canyon, Vermilion Cliffs, and Cliff Dwellers), turn right onto House Rock Valley Road (BLM Road 1065) just past the House Rock Valley Chain Up Area. Travel approximately 2-3 miles to a condor kiosk and shaded viewing area on the right. Atop the cliffs to your east is the location where condors are released, and a good place to see condors year round. In winter months, condors frequent the Colorado River corridor near Marble Canyon and in summer months, condors are seen frequently at the South Rim of the Grand Canyon.
Status:
California condors are one of the most endangered birds in the world. They were placed on the federal endangered species list in 1967. In Arizona, reintroduction was conducted under a special provision of the Endangered Species Act that allows for the designation of a "nonessential experimental" population. Under this designation (referred to as the 10(j) rule) the protections for an endangered species are relaxed, providing greater flexibility for management of a reintroduction program.
Conservation Needs:
As a result of the continued downward spiral of the condor population in the 1980's, one of the longest wildlife recovery efforts ever attempted began. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service began a captive breeding program in 1980, teaming with the Los Angeles Zoo and the San Diego Wild Animal Park. In 1987, a controversial decision was made to bring all remaining condors (22 individuals) into captivity and the last wild bird was captured on April 19, 1987.
All hope for condor recovery was now placed on captive breeding programs, and the task was formidable. Because recruitment into the population is very low, captive breeding techniques were developed in which eggs are removed as they are laid, usually causing the captive condors to lay a second and sometimes third egg. The "extra" eggs are incubated and chicks are raised by caretakers using a hand puppet shaped like a parent condor head. The puppet prevents the young condors from imprinting on people. Condor chicks that are not raised by puppets, are raised by their parent birds. As a result of captive breeding, condor populations have increased dramatically from 22 birds in 1987 to more than 250 birds in 2005.
cjcj
New member
6 condors dead from lead [2 this year]
California condors at the Vermilion Cliffs earlier this spring. Other birds are still in captivity awaiting release into the wilds of Arizona. Only 22 condors were left in the world in 1982, but efforts to capture and breed the birds have been successful, leading up to releases like the ones frequently happening at Vermilion Cliffs. Fifty-three condors now live in the wild in Arizona; 241 condors live in the wild and captivity worldwide.
One difficulty for biologists trying to save the condors is lead poisoning. At least six condors have died from lead poisoning, including two this year. The Arizona Game and Fish Department is involved in many proactive efforts to prevent lead poisoning, including public education efforts and encouragement for hunters to use non-lead ammunition when they're in condor territory.
Those wishing to see California condors in the wild can travel to a few places in Arizona this time of year and probably be successful.
"Condors will likely start visiting the South Rim of the Grand Canyon on a regular basis in the next few weeks," says Chris Parish, a biologist with The Peregrine Fund. "The birds can also be seen at the Vermilion Cliffs release site."
California condors have been listed as endangered since 1967. They can weigh up to 26 pounds and have a wingspan of up to 9.5 feet. The condor reintroduction in Arizona is a joint project of many partners, including the Arizona Game and Fish Department, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, The Peregrine Fund, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, Kaibab National Forest, and Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.
California condors at the Vermilion Cliffs earlier this spring. Other birds are still in captivity awaiting release into the wilds of Arizona. Only 22 condors were left in the world in 1982, but efforts to capture and breed the birds have been successful, leading up to releases like the ones frequently happening at Vermilion Cliffs. Fifty-three condors now live in the wild in Arizona; 241 condors live in the wild and captivity worldwide.
One difficulty for biologists trying to save the condors is lead poisoning. At least six condors have died from lead poisoning, including two this year. The Arizona Game and Fish Department is involved in many proactive efforts to prevent lead poisoning, including public education efforts and encouragement for hunters to use non-lead ammunition when they're in condor territory.
Those wishing to see California condors in the wild can travel to a few places in Arizona this time of year and probably be successful.
"Condors will likely start visiting the South Rim of the Grand Canyon on a regular basis in the next few weeks," says Chris Parish, a biologist with The Peregrine Fund. "The birds can also be seen at the Vermilion Cliffs release site."
California condors have been listed as endangered since 1967. They can weigh up to 26 pounds and have a wingspan of up to 9.5 feet. The condor reintroduction in Arizona is a joint project of many partners, including the Arizona Game and Fish Department, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, The Peregrine Fund, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, Kaibab National Forest, and Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.
snake river rufus
New member
That was DDT. I just scanned through the longer but didn't see lead being blamed for that also.cjcj said:
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
That was interesting reading cjcj. Sounds like they can use all the help they can get.
Nut
New member
No California Condors around here so I am good to go .
.cjcj
New member
The birds managed to maintain a strong population perhaps due to large sea mammals that washed upon shore, however, the settlement of the west, shooting, poisoning from lead and DDT, egg collecting, and general habitat degradation began to take a heavy toll. Between the mid- 1880s and 1924, there were scattered reports of condors in Arizona with the last sighting near Williams Arizona in 1924. By the late 1930s, all remaining condors were found only in California and by 1982, the total population had dwindled to just 22 birds. The only hope was to begin captive breeding of California condors and to initiate reintroduction of the species. Reintroduction of captive bred condors began in 1992 in California, and 1996 in Arizona.
Snake,
Lead [current] and DDT[past] are both a problem with the Condor..i may be wrong about the egg shells ? seems i read it somewhere ? can`t remember...if i see it i will post it for ya.
Snake,
Lead [current] and DDT[past] are both a problem with the Condor..i may be wrong about the egg shells ? seems i read it somewhere ? can`t remember...if i see it i will post it for ya.
I shot a doe pronghorn with an old style X this year and lack of expansion was not a problem. The shot was botched and it went through the hams (long story), bloodshotting most of the meat in each. The pelvis was completely fragmented. This was out of a 30.06 with a 165gr XBT.
IMO, the beauty of the X is that one can shoot a lighter bullet and get the same penetration as a heavier one of a different construction. One writer (he's from Missoula so he can't be THAT bad) states that in his tests the X bullets penetrate the same as a Partition weighing 1.2 times as much. Using the .338 as an example, a 210gr TSX should out penetrate a 250gr Partition, all while kicking less and flying flatter. Seems to be a win-win...
PS- I don't really have a dog in this fight as I've found both the 200gr Ballistic Tip and 210gr Partition satisfactory so far, but the largest thing I've shot is a cow elk.
IMO, the beauty of the X is that one can shoot a lighter bullet and get the same penetration as a heavier one of a different construction. One writer (he's from Missoula so he can't be THAT bad
) states that in his tests the X bullets penetrate the same as a Partition weighing 1.2 times as much. Using the .338 as an example, a 210gr TSX should out penetrate a 250gr Partition, all while kicking less and flying flatter. Seems to be a win-win...PS- I don't really have a dog in this fight as I've found both the 200gr Ballistic Tip and 210gr Partition satisfactory so far, but the largest thing I've shot is a cow elk.
Erik in AK
New member
Personally I'm not excited about an all copper bullet nor do I buy the "higher velocity" argument. Yes, all else being equal, lighter means faster and therefore flatter trajectories BUT light projectiles lose energy faster than heavier ones. And after all, its energy that kills game not feet per second.
I assume that bullet manufacturers will follow in the steps of the waterfowl crowd and we'll be seeing copper jacketed bismuth or tungsten-nickel bullets. Thoughts?
I assume that bullet manufacturers will follow in the steps of the waterfowl crowd and we'll be seeing copper jacketed bismuth or tungsten-nickel bullets. Thoughts?
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
The only reason lighter bullets lose energy faster is because they lose velocity faster due to lower ballistic coefficients. With the Barnes the BC's are higher than a conventional bullet of the same weight. However I'm still a fan of heavy bullets, and in my 30-06 I won't go lighter than the 168 Barnes TSX. But with a smaller capacity case like the 308 Winchester, a 150 grain TSX would make sense.
I believe the new Barnes bullet has a tungsten insert and a plastic tip. It's called the MRX, for Maximum Range, as it has a very high ballistic coefficient.
I believe the new Barnes bullet has a tungsten insert and a plastic tip. It's called the MRX, for Maximum Range, as it has a very high ballistic coefficient.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
I've read the MRX is offered by Federal in 2006 in 300 WSM.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
noharleyyet said:
Are you planning on giving them a try? Any idea what the cost will be? I'd bet close to $40 a box.
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