Your eatin lead?

[BuzzH]

cjcj,

It comes as no big shock that you wouldnt know why they're crap.

And yes, I have tried them in a variety of calibers. They're crap, and none will ever leave the barrel of my rifles again.

 

[snake river rufus]

And yet most everyone else seems to like them

 

[Washington Hunter]

My brother and I have both had good luck with the Barnes TSX's on deer and elk. I sure wouldn't say they're "crap." But Buzz is entitled to his opinion. He can keep on using the old fashioned Partitions, and I'm sure they will work as well.

 

[cjcj]

cjcj,

It comes as no big shock that you wouldnt know why they're crap.

And yes, I have tried them in a variety of calibers. They're crap, and none will ever leave the barrel of my rifles again.

Buzz now your starting to sound like a fool... Instead of just blowing smoke... Why don`t you enlighten us with some "Ballistic Statistics" or some kind of "Hard evidence" as to why they are crap? You always chide others for not providing proof to back up a claim or opinion... I have faith in the manufacturer [Federal] and have just witnessed first hand at how well they worked on big game....I can`t see any difference in knockdown or accuracy between lead and copper..... then again i don`t have to shoot my game 2-3 times like you do. Maybe if you spent some time at the range you could become a better shot.. hump . plus try your gun with different bullet typs [ they all fly a little different]

You don`t really think Federal would put out CRAPPY bullets do you? If you do,you know nothing about Methods Eng. or Quality Manufacturing. |oo

 

[BuzzH]

Alright cjcj,

I'll tell you why I think the barnes X are crap.

For starters, they're much longer for weight than a standard lead-core bullets. This causes some problems for loading, in particular in short cases and cases with short necks. Like the 308, 30/06, 338, 300 winchester, 264, etc. etc. etc.

To compensate for that, most people dropped to a lighter bullet weight. In my opinion sacrificing bullet weight to accomadate seating depth of a bullet is a big mistake.

Another thing I noticed right off is they were a pain in the ass to work up a load for. I tried a variety of powders and load combinations and found a couple loads that were marginally accurate. They arent nearly as easy to work a load for than nosler partitions.

As to how they perform on game. I personally saw 2 experiences that iced the cake for me on barnes X. One was my best friends unlimited ram he killed in Montana with a 264 and barnes X bullets. He shot the ram through the lungs with his first shot, but the bullet failed to expand, despite the fact the bullet was traveling in excess of 3000 fps. The initial shot was 200 yards or so. He hit the ram again when it stopped about 150 yards from the initial hit. The ram was quartering away very hard and he hit in the hip, broke the hip, traveled through the ram and he found the bullet under the skin on the off-side. The only "expansion" on that bullet was a very small, less than diameter petalling at the very tip of that X bullet. The bullet was bent slightly but if not for that fact, you could nearly relaod that bullet again. He was extremely lucky those X bullets didnt screw him out of this ram. If he hadnt hit that ram again and busted the hip, it would have went a long assed way with only a 264 pin-hole through it. With little to no blood on dry ground and a ram in heavy timber, it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible to find that ram. The initial hit showed a 264 caliber hole going in and out of that ram, busting 3 ribs.

The other time I saw X's in action was out of a 300 winchester. A whitetail buck shot in a pasture at 40 yards, middle of the body tight behind the shoulder perfect broadside shot. The same exact performance as with my buddies ram. 30 caliber hole in, 30 caliber hole out. The buck ran over 600 yards before bedding down. There was no blood trail despite there being 4-5 inches of snow on the ground. The buck had to be shot again.

Thats not the kind of performance I'm looking for in a bullet.

Nosler partitions for me, perfect combination of expansion and penetrating abilities. Large wound channels with CONSISTANT results, very boring, but very effective.

Good luck with your X bullets, but I'm not going to try them again. I dont like surprises from trick bullets.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Buzz, The Barnes bullets you're talking about, were they the "old style" X bullet? Because I had the same bad luck with them. But the new TSX is much better. With the old X bullets out of a 264 Win Mag I shot a bull elk at about 40 yards, broadside, two shots right through both lungs. It stopped him but he didn't go down. So, I put one more through both shoulders. That one dropped him immediately. It appeared as if the first two through the lungs did not expand at all. The third bullet I recovered just inside the hide on the far shoulder. It was like the one you described, the tip was slightly bent but other than that it looked like new, and that was after going through both shoulders at somewhere between 3100 and 3200 feet per second!

 

[BuzzH]

WH,

Yes, they were the old style if I remember correctly.

That was enough for me, and I dont care how much they say they've improved their bullets. I dont trust them, never have and never will, and rightfully so IMO.

Barnes was very reluctant to admit they're early design X was a piece of crap bullet that probably caused the loss of countless big-game animals.

Barnes and their bullets, new design or not, are never going to gain my trust. I find something that works consistantly and I stick to it. Noslers havent failed me in 20 years of hunting. I like that.

 

[noharleyyet]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Can't blame you for that Buzz. What about the new Accubonds? Do you think you'll ever give them a try? At least they're still Noslers. I'm thinking of trying out the 200 grain Accubond in my 30-06.

 

[BuzzH]

WH,

I may try them and shoot them as a practice bullet. But for my hunting loads I doubt I'll ever shoot anything but partitions and the old style nosler solid base.

 

[Washington Hunter]

I used to use Partitions out of my 264. The only reason I quit using them is I didn't like how the soft tips would get smashed flat when in the magazine.

 

[cjcj]

When i finish the film in my cheap camera , i will gladly show a picture of the "new" bullet performance both deer 1 shot kills... my deer never even took a step boom right down where it stood.... I will gladly take and use the free ammo ....and will buy it in the future... by the way these are "new" factory loads.

 

[BuzzH]

I'll gladly show you 20 years worth of "old" bullet performance.

 

[cjcj]

Buzz are you listening, and paying attention to this thread?... I am not knocking "lead" or old bullets in any way, I could show you 40 years of quality lead bullet performance.... i think just about 99% of the dead critters on this hunttalk site have been killed with good shots with lead bullets...Duh?

I`m just putting out my info and opinion on how these new "free" copper bullets worked ...My G& F wanted the kaibab hunters to try them and report back with a survey.....You would think that a Government Guy like yourself would not be so close minded about this issue......Save the Condors Buzz.. and then maybe you will get some help saving your Salmon and other species. You of all liberals should see the Context of the issue.

 

[snake river rufus]

removing solid lead from bullets is not going to save the condors or anything else. One good thing about the 'X' bullet is that you can go one weight class to get the same performance. If you shoot 180 gr whatevers now you get roughly the same performance with a 168 gr 'X'

 

[cjcj]

Snake i believe the Bioligist`s at Game and Fish would disagree with you.

[your quote]
removing solid lead from bullets is not going to save the condors or anything else

 

[snake river rufus]

well find out for sure and we can discuss it but I don't see the condors eating too many bullets.

 

[cjcj]

Well here you go?

Condors and Lead


Additional California Condor pages

- Condors and Lead





Lead toxicity has been identified as a cause of death in condors in the Arizona reintroduction program. Six confirmed and three suspected condor deaths have been caused by lead poisoning, the most recent occurring in January of 2005. Condors in Arizona are trapped twice a year to have their blood tested for lead. Biologists have seen 176 instances of lead exposure in condors since testing began in 1999. Sixty-six of these exposures resulted in treatment (chelation) to reverse dangerously high blood lead levels (data current as of Jun. 2005). Without these treatments more condors might have died.

Although there may be many potential sources of lead, an ongoing scientific study funded by the Arizona Game and Fish Department has determined that lead from spent ammunition has been the cause of lead poisoning in at least one condor and probably in many more. Condors inadvertently ingest lead from spent ammunition found in animal carcasses and gut piles. Fragments from lead bullets or lead shot have been found within the digestive tracts of condors 14 times in Arizona. Lead bullets can fragment into hundreds of pieces before they exit a target such as a deer or elk. Since condors are group feeders, and only one or two lead fragments or pellets can cause lead toxicity, one animal carcass or gut pile containing lead fragments or lead shot has the potential to poison several condors.

How you can help
Arizona hunters have a long tradition of wildlife conservation. Arizona Game and Fish Department is asking for your help in continuing this proud tradition. The Department recently surveyed hunters and ranchers about their thoughts on condor management, and specifically the concern over lead poisoning in condors. Hunters and ranchers responded that they wanted to help, but requested more information on the topic. We responded by providing the public with condor lead exposure data and funding scientific studies to determine the source of this lead. We're also engaged in an extensive public education effort. Now we're asking for your help. If you hunt within condor range in Arizona (Game Management Units 12A, 12B, 9, 10, 13A, and 13B), please use non-lead ammunition.

High performance all-copper bullets are now available in most rifle calibers. In comparison to lead and copper-jacketed bullets, all-copper bullets do not fragment and are far less toxic. Scavengers like the condor are less likely to ingest one large mushroomed bullet versus many small bullet fragments scattered throughout a carcass or gut pile. Shotgun, pistol, and muzzleloader ammunition are also available in high performing non-lead alternatives. There are also non-lead alternatives for hand-loaders. Please link to non-lead ammunition [PDF, 268kb] for a list of some manufacturers and available calibers. Many sporting stores and on-line retailers carry non-lead ammunition. For a list of some non-lead ammunition retailers, please link to non-lead ammunition retailers [PDF, 31kb].

If you choose to use lead ammunition while hunting, there are still ways you can help condors in Arizona:

Remove all shot animals (coyotes, small and big game) and gut piles from the field.


Hide carcasses and gut piles by covering them with rocks and/or brush.


Remove bullets and surrounding flesh if leaving carcasses

 

[TheTone]

Well said in your last post Buzz, although I'm not a partition man (Speer Grand Slams and some handloaded Fusion's), your comments on the X bullets basically mirror my sentiments on them. I've also heard many comments about the pain in the ass they make cleaning a barrel. Don't even get me started on the smoke and mirrors that the triple shocks are over the regular X's.

 

[snake river rufus]

well it's not smoke and mirrors, triple shocks have adressed most of the genuine problems with the 'X'. Getting the COL just right to shoot well can be a problem(which we never had with the original barnes- those shot great with no load work up needed.
I would like to see the methodology of the "ongoing scientific study " somewhere. Some times politics mixes too much with science.
I can see how lead is getting into the condors digestive track but still think it wouldn't stay there long enough to begin to dissolve. Unless the have a craw or very potent stomach juices, Im just not ready to accept it on face value.
How many condors are there in this area? I mean just what percent of the total population is the one condor that they are sure died from eating bullets?