WY HB286

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T17:05:04-0700

When deer numbers are this low, every deer counts and mortality is definitely additive. Whether that be winter, vehicles, cats, bears, hunters, etc. The problem is, if you never give them a break somehow, the populations will take decades to recover, if they ever do.

It only makes sense when there's dips in the deer populations to do what you can to help them recover.

Where I hunt whitetails in Montana, human hunting combined with lowering lion quotas by 90% really knocked the shit out of the whitetail population. No question a solid 60-70% reduction and there was essentially NO winter kill to blame. It was a 1-2 punch that, even after nearly 20 years, they have not recovered from. I'm guessing 65-70% of what populations were in the early 2000's.

Thankfully there has been reduced doe harvest, increase in lion harvest again, and also I think wolves have really thinned out the lions in the area I hunt. That was huge, and while a pack of wolves kill a few deer, a half dozen lions will kill wayyyyyyy more than a pack of 6 wolves.

IMO, if the goal is to grow mule deer herds, anything at this point we can do makes sense. That's not to say we should kill every lion, bear, coyote, etc. but I believe there's room to remove more of them and also to allow more opportunity for sportsmen at the same time.

I would also like to see trapping part of the legal means of take, regardless of quota's increasing or not. A few reasons for that, 1. I don't think hound hunters should have the market cornered. 2. It would allow lion harvest on smaller pieces of public that are surrounded by places hound hunters aren't allowed to run (private). 3. Not everyone wants to blast one out of a tree. 4. It would allow more participation in lion hunting/trapping.

idelkslayer · 2025-02-03T17:08:45-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
It's incredible to me that hunters still point to lions as the culprit for declining mule deer populations when WY has winter kills with 30-50% doe mortality and 100% fawn mortality in recent years.

If lions weren't the issue when deer populations were better and lion quotas existed, then exterminating them won't solve the winterkill problem.

If your feet are cold because you aren't wearing boots, putting on an extra pair of gloves won't solve the problem.

Mule deer death rates deepen in western Wyoming - WyoFile

One of Wyoming’s flagship mule deer herds has lost more than half of its animals to an unusual inverted snowpack that’s still killing scores of animals

wyofile.com

You are correct that lions are not the culprit in recent deer declines. You accurately pointed to the multiple recent winter kills as the primary cause.

However, when deer populations were high we also allowed more doe hunts and general season youth doe opportunity (Idaho). Those opportunities have been reduced or eliminated in an effort to help deer herds rebound. Increasing harvest of lions to further reduce predation on mule deer makes sense and was also cited as the reason for eliminating the quotas in Southeast Idaho. I realize this discussion on Wyoming but the situation is similar across the border.

The lion situation in southeast Idaho is not as dire as you made it sound. Here is a table of total lion harvest from 2018-2023. The quotas were eliminated in 2021 so the table gives three years with quotas and three years without. Of course we would expect harvest numbers to go up when the quotas were removed but it is not as drastic as the 40 per year before and 150 per year after that you said.

Unit#	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022	2023
61		1	1	1	2	2
62		9	1	2	8	3
62A	1
63	1
63A		1
64	5	5	2	3	5	6
65	5	1	3	1	5	1
66	4	4	7	1	6	1
66A		3			2
67	3	4	5	7	4	2
68
68A				1
69	11	14	10	5	10	7
70	10	3	5	6	5	9
71	1	2	3	4	10	9
72	6	2	3	5	3	6
73	12	12	12	22	16	3
73A		5	5	9	6	6
74	2	5	8	11	6	11
75	3	7	6	4	3	6
76	8	14	14	24	15	18
77	2		3	7	3	3
78	4	7	6	12	2	9
Total	78	99	94	125	111	102

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T17:13:12-0700

idelkslayer said:
You are correct that lions are not the culprit in recent deer declines. You accurately pointed to the multiple recent winter kills as the primary cause.

However, when deer populations were high we also allowed more doe hunts and general season youth doe opportunity (Idaho). Those opportunities have been reduced or eliminated in an effort to help deer herds rebound. Increasing harvest of lions to further reduce predation on mule deer makes sense and was also cited as the reason for eliminating the quotas in Southeast Idaho. I realize this discussion on Wyoming but the situation is similar across the border.

The lion situation in southeast Idaho is not as dire as you made it sound. Here is a table of total lion harvest from 2018-2023. The quotas were eliminated in 2021 so the table gives three years with quotas and three years without. Of course we would expect harvest numbers to go up when the quotas were removed but it is not as drastic as the 40 per year before and 150 per year after that you said.

Unit#
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
61
1
1
1
2
2
62
9
1
2
8
3
62A
1
63
1
63A
1
64
5
5
2
3
5
6
65
5
1
3
1
5
1
66
4
4
7
1
6
1
66A
3
2
67
3
4
5
7
4
2
68
68A
1
69
11
14
10
5
10
7
70
10
3
5
6
5
9
71
1
2
3
4
10
9
72
6
2
3
5
3
6
73
12
12
12
22
16
3
73A
5
5
9
6
6
74
2
5
8
11
6
11
75
3
7
6
4
3
6
76
8
14
14
24
15
18
77
2
3
7
3
3
78
4
7
6
12
2
9
Total
78
99
94
125
111
102

About what I would expect to see, a bump at first, then leveling off.

Lions aren't something that most hunters shoot one of every year, most people I know, including some serious hound hunters, shoot 1 or 2 in their life and call it good.

I'm in that camp, shot one with hounds, and can't say I'll never do it again, but not real likely. I would trap one or shoot another one that I called in with a predator call though.

JM77 · 2025-02-03T17:34:21-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
View attachment 359485

Buzz is right about your reading comprehension. You should take your time and read it all. Again.

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T17:49:13-0700

idelkslayer said:
You are correct that lions are not the culprit in recent deer declines. You accurately pointed to the multiple recent winter kills as the primary cause.

However, when deer populations were high we also allowed more doe hunts and general season youth doe opportunity (Idaho). Those opportunities have been reduced or eliminated in an effort to help deer herds rebound. Increasing harvest of lions to further reduce predation on mule deer makes sense and was also cited as the reason for eliminating the quotas in Southeast Idaho. I realize this discussion on Wyoming but the situation is similar across the border.

The lion situation in southeast Idaho is not as dire as you made it sound. Here is a table of total lion harvest from 2018-2023. The quotas were eliminated in 2021 so the table gives three years with quotas and three years without. Of course we would expect harvest numbers to go up when the quotas were removed but it is not as drastic as the 40 per year before and 150 per year after that you said.

Unit#
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
61
1
1
1
2
2
62
9
1
2
8
3
62A
1
63
1
63A
1
64
5
5
2
3
5
6
65
5
1
3
1
5
1
66
4
4
7
1
6
1
66A
3
2
67
3
4
5
7
4
2
68
68A
1
69
11
14
10
5
10
7
70
10
3
5
6
5
9
71
1
2
3
4
10
9
72
6
2
3
5
3
6
73
12
12
12
22
16
3
73A
5
5
9
6
6
74
2
5
8
11
6
11
75
3
7
6
4
3
6
76
8
14
14
24
15
18
77
2
3
7
3
3
78
4
7
6
12
2
9
Total
78
99
94
125
111
102

Show the stats back to 2010 or so. We were killing around 40 lions per year when there was a collective quota of 22 female lions in SE Idaho units, which included incidental harvest, as well as hound hunting. Some years the quota was over a third filled by deer hunters shooting cats incidentally. Typically, if the quota got met, and many years it didn't, it was about a 1:1 ratio on female to male kills until it shut down....hence 40 lions. This was before 2018. Also, many of the units you put on here are not part of that unit group and never were. Unit 69 hasn't had quotas...it has a giant winter closure where lions cannot be hunted as well as an Indian reservation that takes up over 1/4 of the unit.

In 2014, 6 lions were killed in 73 and 6 lions were killed in unit 76. The year quotas were eliminated, as your chart shows, 22 cats were killed in 73 and 24 cats killed in 76. Pretty big jump. Imagine if we did that with sheep or moose in a single game management unit. Interestingly, look at the mule deer harvest for 2014, 2015 and 2016. Now compare that to 2022, the year after we slaughtered all this pesky deer killin' cats.

Yeah...lions are the problem.

Quotas had been rising and you started your stats in 2018. After the collective SE Idaho 22 female quota, they started with female quotas for smaller unit sub- groups in an effort to spread harvest, and when those female quotas were met, all harvest was shut down. One outfitter complained because in his unit group locals killed the quota to prevent him from overharvesting males. Then quotas became smaller unit groups, or individual units in some cases, with a quota for each sex...and incidental harvest during deer and elk seasons weren't counted towards quotas, which amounted to a decent amount of killing, in addition to rising quotas.

So, yes, I stand behind my statement that it was a giant rise in cat killing in SE Idaho that didn't amount to better deer populations. Hence me saying that the lions aren't the main issue here. Winter kill from harsh winter combined with human encroachment on wintering grounds are the problem.

Wyoming can do whatever they want. It's funny the head honcho of BHA is totally fine with legislatures establishing quotas and seasons for big game, as long as he agrees with it. Seems to be a bigger issue than what or what not to do with lions in my opinion. It is also funny to think that simply going to no quotas and 365 days of killing isn't someone seen as radical game management. Maybe next time a few farmers complain about their alfalfa being eaten by deer to the right legislature he can propose a bill for no bag limits and a 365 day season.

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T17:52:11-0700

JM77 said:
Buzz is right about your reading comprehension. You should take your time and read it all. Again.

So on the years with 50% of the does dying and virtually 100% of fawn winter mortality, you will hold that lions "are the #1 mortality on mule deer."

Lol.

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T18:16:53-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
Show the stats back to 2010 or so. We were killing around 40 lions per year when there was a collective quota of 22 female lions in SE Idaho units, which included incidental harvest, as well as hound hunting. Some years the quota was over a third filled by deer hunters shooting cats incidentally. Typically, if the quota got met, and many years it didn't, it was about a 1:1 ratio on female to male kills until it shut down....hence 40 lions. This was before 2018. Also, many of the units you put on here are not part of that unit group and never were. Unit 69 hasn't had quotas...it has a giant winter closure where lions cannot be hunted as well as an Indian reservation that takes up over 1/4 of the unit.

In 2014, 6 lions were killed in 73 and 6 lions were killed in unit 76. The year quotas were eliminated, as your chart shows, 22 cats were killed in 73 and 24 cats killed in 76. Pretty big jump. Imagine if we did that with sheep or moose in a single game management unit. Interestingly, look at the mule deer harvest for 2014, 2015 and 2016. Now compare that to 2022, the year after we slaughtered all this pesky deer killin' cats.
View attachment 359488

Yeah...lions are the problem.

Quotas had been rising and you started your stats in 2018. After the collective SE Idaho 22 female quota, they started with female quotas for smaller unit sub- groups in an effort to spread harvest, and when those female quotas were met, all harvest was shut down. One outfitter complained because in his unit group locals killed the quota to prevent him from overharvesting males. Then quotas became smaller unit groups, or individual units in some cases, with a quota for each sex...and incidental harvest during deer and elk seasons weren't counted towards quotas, which amounted to a decent amount of killing, in addition to rising quotas.

So, yes, I stand behind my statement that it was a giant rise in cat killing in SE Idaho that didn't amount to better deer populations. Hence me saying that the lions aren't the main issue here. Winter kill from harsh winter combined with human encroachment on wintering grounds are the problem.

Wyoming can do whatever they want. It's funny the head honcho of BHA is totally fine with legislatures establish quotas and seasons for game, as last night as he agrees with it. Seems to be a bigger issue than what or what not to do with lions in my opinion. It is also funny to think that simply going to no quotas and 365 days of killing isn't someone seen as radical game management. Maybe next time a few farmers complain about their alfalfa being eaten by deer to the right legislature he can propose a bill for no bag limits and a 365 day season.

Had enough of your mouth there, Sport.

Put a sock in it and pull your head out.

What I'm for in regard to lions is more opportunity via trapping as a legal means of take.

I still want a season, still want quotas, still want a license requirement...both lion tags, and a trappers license if we allow trapping.

I already gave you the reasons why it makes sense.

What you want is exactly what every other whining hound hunters wants, to spend an hour finding a track from the seat of a truck. I had to listen to this same shit for 15 years in Montana from hound hunters. They threw a temper tantrum over allowing deer and elk hunters to shoot them incidentally. Their high pitched whining about quotas filling too fast still hovers in space over the FWP building on Spurgin road. "We burned 4 tanks of gas and never cut a track". The list goes on and on.

Meanwhile I couldn't keep lions out of my bobcat sets that, heaven forbid, I had to hike a 1/2-1 mile to. I wish the crying hound hunters would have gotten out of the truck to look for tracks, I probably wouldn't have needed a catch pole a few times a year. They probably wouldn't have had to burn 4 tanks of fuel to cut a track either.

You need to stop with the BHA crap too, I'm not going to put up with your nonsense. You're stating things that are a flat lie. Grow up, and any time you want to become a WY resident and take over as BHA co-chair here, you can have at it. I'll sling BS accusations at you all day long.

I sure hope you're calling in to tomorrows TRW meeting to set Wyoming straight on how we need to manage lions.

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T18:28:21-0700

BuzzH said:
Had enough of your mouth there, Sport.

Put a sock in it and pull your head out.

What I'm for in regard to lions is more opportunity via trapping as a legal means of take.

I still want a season, still want quotas, still want a license requirement...both lion tags, and a trappers license if we allow trapping.

I already gave you the reasons why it makes sense.

What you want is exactly what every other whining hound hunters wants, to spend an hour finding a track from the seat of a truck. I had to listen to this same shit for 15 years in Montana from hound hunters. They threw a temper tantrum over allowing deer and elk hunters to shoot them incidentally. Their high pitched whining about quotas filling too fast still hovers in space over the FWP building on Spurgin road. "We burned 4 tanks of gas and never cut a track". The list goes on and on.

Meanwhile I couldn't keep lions out of my bobcat sets that, heaven forbid, I had to hike a 1/2-1 mile to. I wish the crying hound hunters would have gotten out of the truck to look for tracks, I probably wouldn't have needed a catch pole a few times a year. They probably wouldn't have had to burn 4 tanks of fuel to cut a track either.

You need to stop with the BHA crap too, I'm not going to put up with your nonsense. You're stating things that are a flat lie. Grow up, and any time you want to become a WY resident and take over as BHA co-chair here, you can have at it. I'll sling BS accusations at you all day long.

I sure hope you're calling in to tomorrows TRW meeting to set Wyoming straight on how we need to manage lions.

Just so that we're all clear on this: Is it the official position of BHA that state legislatures should write game seasons and quotas instead of commissioners...or just you?

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T18:30:30-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
Just so that we're all clear on this: Is it the official position of BHA that state legislatures should write game seasons and quotas instead of commissioners...or just you?

Already been through this...now run along, your mom has your hot pocket ready.

You want to act like an insolent child, you'll get treated like one.

LuketheDog · 2025-02-03T18:39:40-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
So, I went and watched this great video because I don't know how the legislative process works.

I am now in agreement with you that legislatures are obviously the best people to be setting hunting seasons and quotas rather than game commissioners.

The legislature may be better than the voting public though, come hang out in Colorado for a while if you want to learn all the various ways bad ideas can become laws...

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T18:46:18-0700

BuzzH said:
Already been through this...now run along, your mom has your hot pocket ready.

You want to act like an insolent child, you'll get treated like one.

Answer the question big guy: Is it the official position of BHA that state legislatures should write game seasons and quotas instead of commissioners...or just you?

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T18:47:09-0700

LuketheDog said:
The legislature may be better than the voting public though, come hang out in Colorado for a while if you want to learn all the various ways bad ideas can become laws...

I think game commissioners should determine hunting season and quotas.

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T18:49:12-0700

I believe a middle ground exists somewhere between status quo and completely eliminating lion quotas and making the season 365 days long. Wyoming could simply raise quotas.

I also think legislatures shouldn't determine quotas and seasons.

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T18:50:45-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
Answer the question big guy: Is it the official position of BHA that state legislatures should write game seasons and quotas instead of commissioners...or just you?

You need to learn to read.

Not saying it again.

What I'm for in regard to lions is more opportunity via trapping as a legal means of take.

I still want a season, still want quotas, still want a license requirement...both lion tags, and a trappers license if we allow trapping.

Forkyfinder · 2025-02-03T18:51:19-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
Just so that we're all clear on this: Is it the official position of BHA that state legislatures should write game seasons and quotas instead of commissioners...or just you?

Just him. Does BHA have anything published somewhere?

Folks ought to think about what this does for people wanting to volunteer on org boards. I, for one, have no wish to lose my voice independent of an org. Buzz can represent himself or he can represent BHA, sometimes both, sometimes only one.

Conflating what he says strictly to BHAs opinion isnt fair to him or BHA.

LuketheDog · 2025-02-03T18:51:24-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
I think game commissioners should determine hunting season and quotas.

Commissioners are a step in the right direction, but I think you really mean biologists...we have had many idiot commissioners

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T18:53:43-0700

LuketheDog said:
Commissioners are a step in the right direction, but I think you really mean biologists...we have had many idiot commissioners

Commissioners should listen to biologists' recommendations, as well as the public stake holders, but biologists shouldn't be setting quotas and seasons. Commissioners set quotas and seasons.

Hawk Tuah · 2025-02-03T18:56:30-0700

Forkyfinder said:
Just him. Does BHA have anything published somewhere?

Folks ought to think about what this does for people wanting to volunteer on org boards. I, for one, have no wish to lose my voice independent of an org. Buzz can represent himself or he can represent BHA, sometimes both, sometimes only one.

Conflating what he says strictly to BHAs opinion isnt fair to him or BHA.

Then let him say that.

He represents the organization. It is a fairly radical belief that we should just cut out game commissioners from the season setting and bag limit/quota setting. They exist for a reason and the system exists for a reason.

He is allowed to say if just he believes this personally, or also BHA.

Instead, he will just post clown emojis, your momma jokes and pictures of Hooked on Phonics books.

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T18:57:19-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
Commissioners should listen to biologists' recommendations, as well as the public stake holders, but biologists shouldn't be setting quotas and seasons. Commissioners set quotas and seasons.

They ought to just hire you, fire the rest, and we'd be good to go.

BuzzH · 2025-02-03T18:58:42-0700

Hawk Tuah said:
Then let him say that.

He represents the organization. It is a fairly radical belief that we should just cut out game commissioners from the season setting and bag limit/quota setting. They exist for a reason and the system exists for a reason.

He is allowed to say if just he believes this personally, or also BHA.

Instead, he will just post clown emojis, your momma jokes and pictures of Hooked on Phonics books.

Maybe you should quit reading what isn't stated, and stick with WHAT IS.

There's a novel idea.

For the record, WYBHA doesn't exist to do your bidding for you and take on your personal grievances from a State away.

Oh, and you're welcome for shutting down two total shit bills already this session.

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