Wildife Task force 90-10, etc.

[Deleted member 18333]

This is why I ask NRs to not blame residents. This is a BS move by WYOGA, not WY residents.

Yet, in fairness to NRs, the TF leaders and the Wyoming legislature has made it very clear that non-resident comments are held in contempt and of little/no value when it comes to wildlife issues.

If Wyoming residents have ideas of how NRs can effectively oppose this, I am all ears. I have been talking to two groups based in Wyoming and we have calls lined up for today. Looking for ideas and ways to help knowing that the TF is heavily loaded toward those wanting to grab the reins and privatize a public asset. If anyone has those ideas, please share them.

There are members of this TF that simply need to be educated. Those that have shown a contempt for public input, regardless of the source, are not the ones that need to be swayed. Their mind is made up. There was a resident hunter that spoke out against the Outfitter set asides last TF meeting. At a break a member of the TF sought more input from that person. I believe they gave them some of the reporting on MT Bulls for Billionaires. This is the type of influence that can happen by in person testimony. When the TF opens it up for public comment and there is one in-person and one on the phone then it looks to those that don't know better that no one cares.

IMO, I think a NR speaking up not as a representative of an organization or group but just as a regular boot leather hunter has a greater impact. Many of these TF members see representatives from WWF, BHA, various lobbying groups all the time telling them how their members feel about an issue. What they don't see is a person from another State showing up in person to speak about how this change will affect them personally.

As you are most likely more aware than most of us, just because you speak it doesn't mean that all will agree but in person testimony cant be ignored as easily as written. It also helps spur the conversation. It did just that at the last TF meeting. I don't know that the Great Compromise is a certainty at this point. Two TF members that I have spoken with will not vote in favor just because of the set asides. One I was surprised by. We will see if they stay with that vote. I've got a theory that the outfitter set aside was put in the compromise knowing it would be so unfavorable that it would kill the whole thing, therefore shutting down 90/10. A bunch of folks on all sides of this stating they are happy with the way things are. Now that it looks a whole lot more certain that the 7250 NR elk cap will be gone, I think many in favor of outfitter set asides are content with their win and will live to fight another day.

 

[JLS]

IMO, I think a NR speaking up not as a representative of an organization or group but just as a regular boot leather hunter has a greater impact.

Fair point, and is true but not true. I can tell you I’ve submitted some comments as a NR of Wyoming and been told “thanks but no thanks”.

It does get exhausting to be told time and again “you’re a NR and you’ll speak when spoken to” and then turn around and get criticized for not driving to a meeting to testify when you’ve been blatantly told your input has the same merit as a bucket of horse apples.

All this to say, I’ll be submitting comments as a blue collar, Joe six pack hunter who cares none about trophies, but all about the hunt.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Fair point, and is true but not true. I can tell you I’ve submitted some comments as a NR of Wyoming and been told “thanks but no thanks”.

So have I, as a resident. Got told a couple meetings ago by a TF member that agreeing with me on a past issue was one of the greatest regrets he had as a Commissioner. He promptly voted the other way at the last meeting.

It does get exhausting to be told time and again “you’re a NR and you’ll speak when spoken to” and then turn around and get criticized for not driving to a meeting to testify when you’ve been blatantly told your input has the same merit as a bucket of horse apples.

This is fair. Wyo residents can be a fickle bunch. They do offer a great, scratch that, decent Zoom setup.

All this to say, I’ll be submitting comments as a blue collar, Joe six pack hunter who cares none about trophies, but all about the hunt.

 

[BrentD]

To Buzz's point, I live next to the biggest wilderness area in the State. It's the assumption that wilderness areas in Wyoming are the Mecca for elk hunting that all residents flock to every fall and thumb their noses at all the non residents on the borderlines from.

Every elk I have killed in the last 22 years have been outside the wilderness. Every single one.

This narrative has been repeated one too many times.

Certainly, not every wilderness area is great elk hunting. But very little of it is poor hunting. A lot of it is damn good hunting. More importantly, and I think deliberately being overlooked, is that many of those wilderness areas are in damn spectacular country. Country that I and many NR landowners would like to hunt in the autumn. But I'm not allowed to do so by myself because of, and only because of, Outfitter subsidies. Yet, I'm still a landowner contributing to the up keep of those properties.

If you have an elk honey hole that meets all your dreams, and you are happy with it, more power to ya and do not hesitate to send us all maps of where it is (hell, we will never be able to draw tags for it anyway). However, if a guy wants to hunt high country back away from as many roads as possible in the fall, "Wilderness" is certainly high in the running for some of the best places for a truly great all-around experience. There is a lot more to hunting than just whacking an elk for your social media pics.

 

[TheTone]

So have I, as a resident. Got told a couple meetings ago by a TF member that agreeing with me on a past issue was one of the greatest regrets he had as a Commissioner. He promptly voted the other way at the last meeting.

So classy, that’s the type of stuff that needs brought up to the task force, legislators and governor’s office. When you get told things like that how can you possibly think the task force has a hunters best interest in mind

 

[Deleted member 18333]

So classy, that’s the type of stuff that needs brought up to the task force, legislators and governor’s office. When you get told things like that how can you possibly think the task force has a hunters best interest in mind

People change their minds. No harm in that. Too bad he changed it to the wrong answer. I am not the only hunter he is listening to.

 

[BuzzH]

This narrative has been repeated one too many times.

Certainly, not every wilderness area is great elk hunting. But very little of it is poor hunting. A lot of it is damn good hunting. More importantly, and I think deliberately being overlooked, is that many of those wilderness areas are in damn spectacular country. Country that I and many NR landowners would like to hunt in the autumn. But I'm not allowed to do so by myself because of, and only because of, Outfitter subsidies. Yet, I'm still a landowner contributing to the up keep of those properties.

If you have an elk honey hole that meets all your dreams, and you are happy with it, more power to ya and do not hesitate to send us all maps of where it is (hell, we will never be able to draw tags for it anyway). However, if a guy wants to hunt high country back away from as many roads as possible in the fall, "Wilderness" is certainly high in the running for some of the best places for a truly great all-around experience. There is a lot more to hunting than just whacking an elk for your social media pics.

I would contend you're wrong.

I have hunted in wilderness and its not the experience you're representing here.

Unless you have a large pack string of stock, you're going to be hard pressed to compete with an outfitted client. The best places to camp, many times the only place to camp, is reserved for outfitters by forest permitting. What places there are to camp, there isn't anywhere for a DIY guy to even graze their stock. The DIY guy doesn't employ a full time wrangler to look after the stock, saddle horses, etc. that the outfitters provide. You also don't get to wake up, throw your clothes on and head to the cook tent for a breakfast a half hour before you jump on your saddled horse to head out to hunt.

Oh, and if you hard-core it in the wilderness on your personal horse, hope you have a couple more fresh ones for the next day. You won't have the horse power to out-hunt an outfitter that has fresh horses all season long.

Even if you did, you better enjoy hunting around a bunch of outfitted clients day after day.

I have a good friend that used to guide the wilderness for sheep, deer, and elk here...he'll tell you the same exact thing. Its no fun to hunt as a DIY Resident or Non-Resident in the wilderness areas having to compete with them for everything from a camping spot, place to graze your stock, or finding a ridge or drainage they aren't already plugging up with a bunch of clients.

There's the "romance" you're wanting everyone to believe about the wilderness areas in Wyoming, the reality is much different.

 

[TOGIE]

the colorado flattops wilderness is fitting buzz's description to a tee here.

that said, they're not all that way. and there's more to hunt in the wilderness than october elk and mule deer.

 

[Big Fin]

@JM77, @BuzzH, @SnowyMountaineer, @mulecreek, thanks for the insight and direction. These ideas are what I was hoping would be shared.

I've had phone calls with two TF members this morning. They were very open to my comments and the perspectives of what happened negatively to residents in Montana when we had an outfitter pool. I have also sent an email to another TF member with whom I served with on the Governors Grizzly Bear Roundtable back in 1999-2001. Who'd of thunk that would be a helpful relationship 20 years later.

Buzz has given me two others to contact that might be open to listening. I will be contacting them. I will be contacting the person I know in the Governor's office. Who knows if it helps, but it likely won't hurt.

I would encourage other NRs to provide comments to the TF, even if the comments are likely to be ignored by some. As @mulecreek has stated, those more inclined to listen need to hear from folks like us, even if some others already have their minds made up and don't want your comments as a NR.

Part of their strategy is to instill the feeling of futility. It works, if we let it.

 

[BrentD]

I would contend you're wrong.

I have hunted in wilderness and its not the experience you're representing here.

Buzz, I have hunted the "wilderness" several times. I know what they are like.

 

[The Hedgehog]

from stem to stern no less.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

the colorado flattops wilderness is fitting buzz's description to a tee here.

that said, they're not all that way. and there's more to hunt in the wilderness than october elk and mule deer.

#BackcountryGrouse2022?

 

[TOGIE]

#BackcountryGrouse2022?

bear and archery mule deer come readily to mind as hunts that can be great in many wilderness areas. i'd feel damn sorry for NR's if they couldn't come to colorado and hunt the wilderness for archery mule deer without an outfitter. horses aren't necessary, unless you're a fatso.

and yes, marmot hunting in the wilderness is prime

 

[RobertD]

I will send in comments today. I've done it before and didn't receive response, but that's better than being told to go away like some people have apparently experienced.

One question: Can anyone give the uneducated person a quick explanation of removing the NR cap and what it implies? I understand what it is and assume it implies unlimited NR elk tags through outfitter draw/landowner tags etc. What benefit/cost does the cap existing/not existing have for regular R and NR hunters? TIA anyone that replies.

 

[BuzzH]

Here's a list of the members, I'll try to round up contact information.

Those that may be best to contact are Sommers, Bell, Shaffer, Crank, Anselmi-Dalton.

• Tony Lehner - Converse County Commissioner, landowner
• Duaine Hagen - Park County landowner
• Representative Jamie Flitner - Big Horn County
• Representative Albert Sommers - Sublette County
• Adam Teten - Johnson County sportsman
• Joe Schaffer - Laramie County sportsman, President of Laramie County Community College
• Rusty Bell - Campbell County Commissioner, Taxidermist, Sportsman
• Sy Gilliland - President of Wyoming Outfitter and Guides Association
• Elissa Ruckle - Owner of Elevate Wyoming
• Senator Ogden Driskill - Crook County
• Senator Larry Hicks - Carbon County
• Liisa Anselmi-Dalton - Sweetwater County hotel owner
• Jen Scoggin - Director Office of State Lands and Investments
• Lee Livingston - Park County Commissioner
• Josh Coursey - Sweetwater County, Executive Director of Muley Fanatics Foundation
• Pat Crank - Laramie County sportsman
• Pete Dube - Johnson County, President of the Game and Fish Commission
• Brian Nesvik - Director of the Game and Fish Department

Partial list of emails:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

 

[rwc101]

Decide to unplug from the hunting world for a few months and Jesus $!#*$ Christ.

 

[RobertD]

@BuzzH any thoughts on messaging and content for NRs who'd like to send some emails? For those of us who want to contribute we should probably get a loose protocol going to follow. Touchy subject and all.

 

[RobertD]

Decide to unplug from the hunting world for a few months and Jesus $!#*$ Christ.

Yo, good to see you back man

 

[Deleted member 18333]

I will send in comments today. I've done it before and didn't receive response, but that's better than being told to go away like some people have apparently experienced.

One question: Can anyone give the uneducated person a quick explanation of removing the NR cap and what it implies? I understand what it is and assume it implies unlimited NR elk tags through outfitter draw/landowner tags etc. What benefit/cost does the cap existing/not existing have for regular R and NR hunters? TIA anyone that replies.

Removing the 7250 cap essentially means the G&F will have to come up with a new way of determining how many NR Gen elk tags to issue. It wont be unlimited. How many and in what regions? Not know at this time. IMO there is little if any overall benefit to NR's. I think if you were a NR that wanted to hunt the Sierra Madres or Greys River under your Gen tag that you might have less tags to work with in the future. If you are a NR that really wanted to hunt the Wilderness areas with a Gen tag then you are going to have more tags to work with. If you are a NR that wants to hunt central and eastern Gen units you are going to have a bunch more tags to work with. Just my guess at this point, nothing more.

 

[BuzzH]

Removing the 7250 cap essentially means the G&F will have to come up with a new way of determining how many NR Gen elk tags to issue. It wont be unlimited. How many and in what regions? Not know at this time. IMO there is little if any overall benefit to NR's. I think if you were a NR that wanted to hunt the Sierra Madres or Greys River under your Gen tag that you might have less tags to work with in the future. If you are a NR that really wanted to hunt the Wilderness areas with a Gen tag then you are going to have more tags to work with. If you are a NR that wants to hunt central and eastern Gen units you are going to have a bunch more tags to work with. Just my guess at this point, nothing more.

To add to this.

What we will have to trust is that the Commission will set realistic quota's in the general regions.

I'm a bit uneasy about that considering the influence that can be exerted on the Commission from all kinds of people, not just WOGA either.

It also puts a lot of faith in the WGF Department to make sure that the special and/or recreation management objectives are being met and that they aren't influenced by the Director's office to sell more tags.

As arbitrary as it may seem, the 7250 cap was and would continue to work. In my opinion, I think in those general areas where elk are way over objective, the GF and Commission could simply issue a unit specific type-2 tag via limited quota.

There is a severe lack of alternatives being looked at, mainly because WOGA and some of the Task Force are simply not willing to listen. There is also a real lack of general knowledge from the Task Force about how the GF can function, is functioning, and what these changes they're throwing around will cause.

That task force needed more involvement from people who understand not only the issues, but how they are able to be dealt with.

Its too bad, because some pretty good candidates were not considered.