Utah raised NR fees.

[hossblur]

Was pretty sneaky to wait until after applications, which would have possibly let dudes burn points this year.

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[appaloosa]

Wow, those are some pretty steep increases. Wishing there were actually places to "burn points" in Utah.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

Great timing on that one. Guess the auction tags weren't enough?

 

[brownbear932008]

Ouch boy that makes you think. Especially right now with a possible recession on the horizon.

 

[NoWiser]

I'm definitely done applying for sheep in Utah. At a certain point, considering my family's finances, it becomes irresponsible to apply for tags knowing what they'd cost if I'd draw. $2,200.00 is beyond that point, unfortunately. $650.00 for a deer tag probably is, as well. I'll still hold on for elk but if it goes up much more, I'll probably be out there, as well.

 

[Blackcats06]

I'm definitely done applying for sheep in Utah. At a certain point, considering my family's finances, it becomes irresponsible to apply for tags knowing what they'd cost if I'd draw. $2,200.00 is beyond that point, unfortunately. $650.00 for a deer tag probably is, as well. I'll still hold on for elk but if it goes up much more, I'll probably be out there, as well.

I'm with you but 650 for a deer tag is about the going rate for nonresidents these days. 1000 for an elk is dumb

 

[BuzzH]

As often as I've drawn a tag in Utah the last 21 years (none)...not a big deal to me.

 

[grizzly_]

This R v. NR tribalism crap is getting old.

UT raised fees.

WY is constantly pushing adjusting ratio reductions to limit NR tags and already has Wilderness Area rules.

ID just raised their fees, shut down spring NR tags due to CV-19, and is implementing elk unit quotas for NR.

NM adjusted their allocation math that screws NR and now has nonrefundable licenses.

That's four western states just right there... Any others I missed?

 

[Losing_Sanity]

I'm definitely done applying for sheep in Utah. At a certain point, considering my family's finances, it becomes irresponsible to apply for tags knowing what they'd cost if I'd draw. $2,200.00 is beyond that point, unfortunately. $650.00 for a deer tag probably is, as well. I'll still hold on for elk but if it goes up much more, I'll probably be out there, as well.

To some folks, they don't get worked up over the increase. In fact, they like it being so high that average people can't participate. Because they can afford what ever the cost. And it limits the people that they don't want in their area. To others, like me, we have to come to a real understanding that its a rich mans sport and we can't play. If no one hunted non-resident for just 1 year, the fish and game would get the idea and lower fees to get people back. But this will never happen because it's all about who can pay and who can not. And those who can won't support the efforts of those who can't. In my opinion...

 

[HONEYBADGER]

It's easy to see where the slow moving train is taking hunting......

 

[hossblur]

This R v. NR tribalism crap is getting old.

UT raised fees.

WY is constantly pushing adjusting ratio reductions to limit NR tags and already has Wilderness Area rules.

ID just raised their fees, shut down spring NR tags due to CV-19, and is implementing elk unit quotas for NR.

NM adjusted their allocation math that screws NR and now has nonrefundable licenses.

That's four western states just right there... Any others I missed?

Others will for sure follow

 

[Big Fin]

As much as I don't like fees being a consideration that keeps people from hunting, it is a reality. A couple things that I reconciled 30 years ago when I decided I wanted to hunt as much as possible and hunt as many places as possible (though my budget would not allow for at that time).

I was living in Nevada where everything was on a draw. At the time they issued a handful of elk tags and a couple hundred antelope tags. I had to draw a deer tag if I was going to hunt. I didn't like the reality, so I had two practical options, one semi-practical option, and one impractical option. Since quitting hunting is never an option for me, that is not part of the consideration I mention.

The impractical option was to wait for other states to lower the prices so I could afford to travel there and hunt every year. That wasn't going to happen in 1989 anymore than it is likely to happen in 2020.

The two practical options were 1) stay in Nevada and deal with the existing situation, or 2) allocate more of my monthly budget to hunting in other states and accept the reality that with a newborn and college loans the small amount remaining to allocate to the hunting budget wouldn't correspond with how much I wanted to hunt.

The semi-practical option was to leave Nevada, take 40% pay cuts, and know it would be even harder to find spare money to allocate to out of state hunting. This is the option we chose. When I look at what I left on the table in terms of employment opportunity/rewards for me and my wife, our first Montana resident elk tag cost us about $25,000. And every tag since then has gotten even more expensive as our financial paths here are far lower growth than what we walked away from.

The reason I say that was semi-practical is because it takes a special spouse and a serious love of hunting to make that kind of financial sacrifice for the benefit of being able to buy an OTC deer and elk tag every year. Most people, once settled into a career and lifestyle, just aren't going to do what I did.

Hopefully it gives some context to why a lot of residents of western states feel complaints about high non-resident fees is a bit incomplete. When I say "incomplete," it is under the premise that a complete assessment would include what these residents might have walked away from to move to a good hunting state or the many opportunity costs they've incurred by declining much high paying jobs in locales without the same hunting benefit.

I wish fees were not an issue. But, they are.

When it comes to a resident v. non-resident comparison, I would argue that a full accounting of the economic sacrifice, which includes both true costs of cash out of hand and financial opportunity costs, that residents of many of these western states are paying far more for their resident benefits than many non-resident pay in cash.

Even when I took the big financial hit to move to Montana, I still made it a priority to build a budget for non-resident applications. It took about five years to build enough savings to start the process in just one state. I wonder if people today would be willing to save $4 per week into a savings account, for five years, to accomplish one of their goals. That is what I did. And in doing so, my wife and I made a lot of sacrifices of other things to build my slush fund that allowed me to accomplish this goal of applying in most all western states.

Point of that personal example is that today is no different than it was 30 years ago. It was expensive then, relative to what I could afford; just as it is today. It took some budgeting and decisions of what I place in highest priority to accomplish what I wanted. It took a lot of compromise with my wife so we both felt we were being fair in the allocations of time and money to our individual activities/goals.

I am sure this does nothing to ease the frustration some have. I assessed my life and realized the frustrations were not going away unless I did something about it. Lots of folks have done the same thing, likely to an even higher financial hit than my example. Hunters who moved to Alaska for better hunting and get away from the outfitter requirements have probably made bigger sacrifices (cost of living and employment opportunities) than what I used in my personal example. They realized that sideboards are what they are and they made a decision accordingly. I don't begrudge them a single bit and I understand why they would want the rules to be what they are in Alaska (or whatever state they moved to).

I hope everyone gets to a point where their budgets, priorities, and life situation allows them to apply in every state. As someone who has been doing this for twenty-five years, my advice would be to do it with your eyes wide open. What you are buying into today is going to change. The draw system might change for the better or the worse, but it will change in most states prior to getting the tag you dream of. And lastly, I always remind myself that every state I apply to as a non-resident is a hunting opportunity that state does not have to provide. Every non-resident tag I might have a chance at is a tag that has been provided to me as a non-resident, at the courtesy of the residents.

 

[BlakeA]

And lastly, I always remind myself that every state I apply to as a non-resident is a hunting opportunity that state does not have to provide. Every non-resident tag I might have a chance at is a tag that has been provided to me as a non-resident, at the courtesy of the residents.

This ^^^^^

 

[BuzzH]

This R v. NR tribalism crap is getting old.

UT raised fees.

WY is constantly pushing adjusting ratio reductions to limit NR tags and already has Wilderness Area rules.

ID just raised their fees, shut down spring NR tags due to CV-19, and is implementing elk unit quotas for NR.

NM adjusted their allocation math that screws NR and now has nonrefundable licenses.

That's four western states just right there... Any others I missed?

I think if anything, the NR fee increases cement the reasons for each state to concentrate on keeping as many of the tags as they can for their residents.

I also believe that many have a sense of entitlement as a NR hunter, and IMO/E the more tags a State offers to NR's, the bigger that NR entitlement becomes. To the point of NR's becoming insufferable and ungrateful clowns, when the residents of the states want to reduce/limit NR's and keep more of the available resources for themselves.

Resident hunting becomes more and more important to me as the surrounding states jack up their prices, reduce quota's. etc. And at this point in my life where I have more hunts in the rearview mirror than the windshield, I'm good with that.

I'll take any opportunity that another State wants to give me and just be grateful for the opportunity I have in the State where I'm a Resident.

 

[406dn]

As much as I don't like fees being a consideration that keeps people from hunting, it is a reality. A couple things that I reconciled 30 years ago when I decided I wanted to hunt as much as possible and hunt as many places as possible (though my budget would not allow for at that time).

I was living in Nevada where everything was on a draw. At the time they issued a handful of elk tags and a couple hundred antelope tags. I had to draw a deer tag if I was going to hunt. I didn't like the reality, so I had two practical options, one semi-practical option, and one impractical option. Since quitting hunting is never an option for me, that is not part of the consideration I mention.

The impractical option was to wait for other states to lower the prices so I could afford to travel there and hunt every year. That wasn't going to happen in 1989 anymore than it is likely to happen in 2020.

The two practical options were 1) stay in Nevada and deal with the existing situation, or 2) allocate more of my monthly budget to hunting in other states and accept the reality that with a newborn and college loans the small amount remaining to allocate to the hunting budget wouldn't correspond with how much I wanted to hunt.

The semi-practical option was to leave Nevada, take 40% pay cuts, and know it would be even harder to find spare money to allocate to out of state hunting. This is the option we chose. When I look at what I left on the table in terms of employment opportunity/rewards for me and my wife, our first Montana resident elk tag cost us about $25,000. And every tag since then has gotten even more expensive as our financial paths here are far lower growth than what we walked away from.

The reason I say that was semi-practical is because it takes a special spouse and a serious love of hunting to make that kind of financial sacrifice for the benefit of being able to buy an OTC deer and elk tag every year. Most people, once settled into a career and lifestyle, just aren't going to do what I did.

Hopefully it gives some context to why a lot of residents of western states feel complaints about high non-resident fees is a bit incomplete. When I say "incomplete," it is under that a complete assessment would include what these residents might have walked away from to move to a good hunting state or the many opportunity costs they've incurred by declining much high paying jobs in locales without the same hunting benefit.

I wish fees were not an issue. But, they are.

When it comes to a resident v. non-resident comparison, I would argue that a full accounting of the economic sacrifice, which includes both true costs of cash out of hand and financial opportunity costs, that residents of many of these western states are paying far more for their resident benefits than many non-resident pay in cash.

Even when I took the big financial hit to move to Montana, I still made it a priority to build a budget for non-resident applications. It took about five years to build enough savings to start the process in just one state. I wonder if people today would be willing to save $4 per week into a savings account, for five years, to accomplish one of their goals. That is what I did. And in doing so, my wife and I made a lot of sacrifices of other things to build my slush fund that allowed me to accomplish this goal of applying in most all western states.

Point of that personal example is that today is no different than it was 30 years ago. It was expensive then, relative to what I could afford; just as it is today. It took some budgeting and decisions of what I place in highest priority to accomplish what I wanted. It took a lot of compromise with my wife so we both felt we were being fair in the allocations of time and money to our individual activities/goals.

I am sure this does nothing to ease the frustration some have. I assessed my life and realized the frustrations were not going away unless I did something about it. Lots of folks have done the same thing, likely to an even higher financial hit than my example. Hunters who moved to Alaska for better hunting and get away from the outfitter requirements have probably made bigger sacrifices (cost of living and employment opportunities) than what I used in my personal example. They realized that sideboards are what they are and they made a decision accordingly. I don't begrudge them a single bit and I understand why they would want the rules to be what they are in Alaska (or whatever state they moved to).

I hope everyone gets to a point where their budgets, priorities, and life situation allows them to apply in every state. As someone who has been doing this for twenty-five years, my advice would be to do it with your eyes wide open. What you are buying into today is going to change. The draw system might change for the better or the worse, but it will change in most states prior to getting the tag you dream of. And lastly, I always remind myself that every state I apply to as a non-resident is a hunting opportunity that state does not have to provide. Every non-resident tag I might have a chance at is a tag that has been provided to me as a non-resident, at the courtesy of the residents.

You said this better than I could have. Way back in the day, my pregnant wife followed me to Montana so that I could hunt big game.

I too, have willingly paid a poverty tax for close to 40 years now. Eventually I found a job that more or less let me have my cake and eat it also.

 

[PAhunter]

I gave Utah $800 for a LE elk tag last year after 19 years of offering begging on my part. The hunt was grand and if I wasn't on timeout I would be more than happy to give them a grand for another go-round this fall.

The thing about Utah is that those expensive LE tag prices don't matter one iota until I actually draw a tag (as Buzz pointed out). That doesn't happen very often. When it does, I know I am likely in for a great hunt. The cost to apply will still be relatively low next year; I don't have to lend Utah DWR $2200 for three months each year for every OIL species I apply for. I don't have to spend triple digit sums to gain single points (that really don't matter much anyway if I'm not near the top of the pool).

I am not a wealthy person and I don't have a slush fund set aside based on a savings plan like Randy's. Sure there'll be a pucker factor if I am ever lucky enough to see a $2,200 hit on my credit card for an OIL tag. But it'll last about 10 seconds tops, then I'll be celebrating.

 

[hossblur]

As much as I don't like fees being a consideration that keeps people from hunting, it is a reality. A couple things that I reconciled 30 years ago when I decided I wanted to hunt as much as possible and hunt as many places as possible (though my budget would not allow for at that time).

I was living in Nevada where everything was on a draw. At the time they issued a handful of elk tags and a couple hundred antelope tags. I had to draw a deer tag if I was going to hunt. I didn't like the reality, so I had two practical options, one semi-practical option, and one impractical option. Since quitting hunting is never an option for me, that is not part of the consideration I mention.

The impractical option was to wait for other states to lower the prices so I could afford to travel there and hunt every year. That wasn't going to happen in 1989 anymore than it is likely to happen in 2020.

The two practical options were 1) stay in Nevada and deal with the existing situation, or 2) allocate more of my monthly budget to hunting in other states and accept the reality that with a newborn and college loans the small amount remaining to allocate to the hunting budget wouldn't correspond with how much I wanted to hunt.

The semi-practical option was to leave Nevada, take 40% pay cuts, and know it would be even harder to find spare money to allocate to out of state hunting. This is the option we chose. When I look at what I left on the table in terms of employment opportunity/rewards for me and my wife, our first Montana resident elk tag cost us about $25,000. And every tag since then has gotten even more expensive as our financial paths here are far lower growth than what we walked away from.

The reason I say that was semi-practical is because it takes a special spouse and a serious love of hunting to make that kind of financial sacrifice for the benefit of being able to buy an OTC deer and elk tag every year. Most people, once settled into a career and lifestyle, just aren't going to do what I did.

Hopefully it gives some context to why a lot of residents of western states feel complaints about high non-resident fees is a bit incomplete. When I say "incomplete," it is under that a complete assessment would include what these residents might have walked away from to move to a good hunting state or the many opportunity costs they've incurred by declining much high paying jobs in locales without the same hunting benefit.

I wish fees were not an issue. But, they are.

When it comes to a resident v. non-resident comparison, I would argue that a full accounting of the economic sacrifice, which includes both true costs of cash out of hand and financial opportunity costs, that residents of many of these western states are paying far more for their resident benefits than many non-resident pay in cash.

Even when I took the big financial hit to move to Montana, I still made it a priority to build a budget for non-resident applications. It took about five years to build enough savings to start the process in just one state. I wonder if people today would be willing to save $4 per week into a savings account, for five years, to accomplish one of their goals. That is what I did. And in doing so, my wife and I made a lot of sacrifices of other things to build my slush fund that allowed me to accomplish this goal of applying in most all western states.

Point of that personal example is that today is no different than it was 30 years ago. It was expensive then, relative to what I could afford; just as it is today. It took some budgeting and decisions of what I place in highest priority to accomplish what I wanted. It took a lot of compromise with my wife so we both felt we were being fair in the allocations of time and money to our individual activities/goals.

I am sure this does nothing to ease the frustration some have. I assessed my life and realized the frustrations were not going away unless I did something about it. Lots of folks have done the same thing, likely to an even higher financial hit than my example. Hunters who moved to Alaska for better hunting and get away from the outfitter requirements have probably made bigger sacrifices (cost of living and employment opportunities) than what I used in my personal example. They realized that sideboards are what they are and they made a decision accordingly. I don't begrudge them a single bit and I understand why they would want the rules to be what they are in Alaska (or whatever state they moved to).

I hope everyone gets to a point where their budgets, priorities, and life situation allows them to apply in every state. As someone who has been doing this for twenty-five years, my advice would be to do it with your eyes wide open. What you are buying into today is going to change. The draw system might change for the better or the worse, but it will change in most states prior to getting the tag you dream of. And lastly, I always remind myself that every state I apply to as a non-resident is a hunting opportunity that state does not have to provide. Every non-resident tag I might have a chance at is a tag that has been provided to me as a non-resident, at the courtesy of the residents.

I heard a dude from Montana say once that in banging the crap out of NR we are killing ourselves long term.

If i lived in Texas and had to fork over $398 to hunt a big utah deer(2 point), I wouldnt give to shits when those Utah guys asked me to help stop stupid land transfer schemes.

Western piblic land states are creating a scenario where 2/3 of the hunting public could care less if public land went away. And in fact, it might make hunting the west cheaper.

Im a Utah res. There ain't a GS unit in this state worth $398 to hunt deer on.

 

[JLS]

Resident hunting becomes more and more important to me as the surrounding states jack up their prices, reduce quota's. etc. And at this point in my life where I have more hunts in the rearview mirror than the windshield, I'm good with that.

I'll take any opportunity that another State wants to give me and just be grateful for the opportunity I have in the State where I'm a Resident.

You and Randy touched on a couple of salient points. When I plop down the money for an out of state hunt, I remind myself the decision to move came with a 70% pay raise, which far offsets the price of the license. Couple that with the fact I have access and opportunity to outstanding chukar hunting and I'm good with that.

If the local opportunity wasn't that appealing to me, I think the cost of doing business out of state might be tougher to swallow. At the end of the day, we all have an opportunity to move, but there certainly will be some trade offs along the way. As much as I think about moving to Wyoming when we retire, I certainly also think about the time I get to spend in some of the coolest country on earth with my dog.

 

[Big Fin]

I heard a dude from Montana say once that in banging the crap out of NR we are killing ourselves long term.

Yup. And like the point I made in my prior post, that is also a reality. Part of the human condition; if we don't see something that benefits us, we are less likely to advocate for it. But, that doesn't change my opinions about the lens through which non-residents might want to look at things. The incomplete view that non-residents are being picked on and residents are getting a free ride is incomplete, and at times, insulting in the narrowness of thought from which such comment is made. It doesn't do any good to the bigger challenges we all are a part of.

In my case and many I know, the huge financial sacrifices residents make is part of what drives their passion for protecting public land and access. There are some red-eared politicians who has stated, "You residents are getting a free ride." My reply raises my blood pressure so much that I have to look down at my wedding ring and remember my wife's wisdom; It's OK to get mad, but you don't have to swear. If non-residents want to simplify it to "I can't hunt there, so I'm busy today," I understand where they are coming from, but that is not the solution either.

Both points are realities. In a simplified world it can be looked at as a binary either/or situation. It is not that. There are multiple realities involved.

You have heard me say many times that it shouldn't all be on the back of non-residents, that residents need to pay more. Nothing I've posted changes any of that.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Wait until the raise the preference points through the roof nationwide. They are already high by most peoples standards for what you are getting... but they are going to attack that soon... Its coming just wait and see.
That is when it is going to hit everyone so hard you feel it in your shoes. When just applying for a point costs you 300$/year/state.
They already make you buy a small game license to get points in Utah and for a decent hunt you are 10 years out if you were on the ground floor 5 years ago......

To put things in perspective. The state of Georgia issues preference points for free....even to non-residents. That is how bad we are all getting taken to the cleaners across the country by these state agencies when we buy points.

And for you guys who "have been there and done that" are content with limiting non-resident hunters. I have news for you, the less non-resident hunters footing the bill, the higher your resident license fees are going to become. So its a double edged sword that you might want to be careful grabbing a hold of.

I personally save like Randy did and accept the fees but I can see how some can not nor will they ever be able to enjoy hunting the west. I feel sad for them.

I have however accepted the fact that across the board my western PP and BP hunts are going to be one and done type of hunts. I will not have the life longevity or the money to play this points game two times.