US Forest Service reduced funding for 2025 implications

[LuketheDog]

The trend is more fires, larger fires, and higher cost to fight them. It probably doesn't matter what business you are in, when you ask your boss for money for something and the estimate is significantly higher than the previous year, they laugh you out of the office. Even if they ask for money it will typically be cut by Congress. Then, when the fires start, they have to ask Congress for an additional appropriation to pay. Congress is reactive. Congress should adjust accordingly but that require additional tax revenues to help pay. I do admit that this can sometimes create a perverse incentive to spend the budget to zero even if it isn't needed so you can justify next year's increase. That is human nature. I don't think we can assume rational and logical conversations can happen in Congress on budgetary matters.

Yes, we agree. I like to remind myself that many of these people are career politicians because they aren't any good at doing things like running a business or being fiscally responsible.

 

[BrentD]

Yes, we agree. I like to remind myself that many of these people are career politicians because they aren't any good at doing things like running a business or being fiscally responsible.

I think that is pretty much entirely wrong and willfully short sighted.

 

[jimh406]

There are people in govt that want to be efficient, but the system doesn't encourage it enough.

As individuals, we have to find a way to do more with less when our pay isn't going up. I think that's possible with govt agencies, too.

My guess is that changes in agency spending habits would leave more money to do the necessary things. But, those changes are probably not going to happen by the people that currently work there unless there are incentives to change.

 

[SAJ-99]

There are people in govt that want to be efficient, but the system doesn't encourage it enough.

As individuals, we have to find a way to do more with less when our pay isn't going up. I think that's possible with govt agencies, too.

My guess is that changes in agency spending habits would leave more money to do the necessary things. But, those changes are probably not going to happen by the people that currently work there unless there are incentives to change.

I laugh when people have never looked at a government agency budget and just assume that the agency is run by Jeffrey Lebowski. Incentivizing to spending less leads to other problems- mostly things not getting done and problems being "swept under the rug". There is a long list of deferred projects, so they are doing more with less. People should ask them themselves if "doing more with less" is something every government agency should do, be it the USFW or the US military?
I think it boils down to Americans wanting things, but not being willing to pay for them. I have been a part of quite a few volunteer work projects, like those put together by RMEF and the like, and they basically amount to doing maintenance on public land because the staff is simply too small to get it done. That is one solution that helps, but it seems Americans that will work for free are the minority.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I laugh when people have never looked at a government agency budget and just assume that the agency is run by Jeffrey Lebowski. Incentivizing to spending less leads to other problems- mostly things not getting done and problems being "swept under the rug". There is a long list of deferred projects, so they are doing more with less. People should ask them themselves if "doing more with less" is something every government agency should do, be it the USFW or the US military?
I think it boils down to Americans wanting things, but not being willing to pay for them. I have been a part of quite a few volunteer work projects, like those put together by RMEF and the like, and they basically amount to doing maintenance on public land because the staff is simply too small to get it done. That is one solution that helps, but it seems Americans that will work for free are the minority.

So true, and furthermore a real problem. Deferred maintenance typically results in "pay to maintain now ... or pay a helluva lot more later". Lack of weed control in USFS lands is a sad example of a real problem that merely expands significantly without forest maintenance. Just check out your favorite campground. Likely you will be dismayed. In partcular, the rampant spread of spotted knapweed infestation in Montana seems hopeless!

 

[Beignet]

It's always shocking to me to hear that a government agency is incapable of staying in the black on their budget, it's really not that hard, and with the amount of waste that seems to occur it's inexcusable.

DC is full of budget wonks. Fortunately there’s actual, citable data on efficiency and effectiveness of government agencies published by the Government Accountability Office. Ag and Interior are hardly the least efficient agencies.

I’d probably start with our national security apparatus if you really want to get upset about government spending and inefficiency. The below is just examples of where agencies overlap in projects, but one small facet of waste.



Source:



All the line item spending for federal agencies and sub agencies is readily available to the public in our fair democracy. You can actually dig through and see what agencies requested vs what was appropriated and where that money was spent. Sure beats conjecture.

Here’s a statement from a CRS report on USFS spending covering funding issues that others in this thread have touched upon.


The USFS has to borrow funds from other discretionary sources to cover wildfire expenses. There is some supplementary funding available, but it’s hard to keep up with the wishlist savings accounts when you’re having to spend that money preventing fires from burning folks’ homes down.

Source:



I guess the TLDR is that it’s easy to bemoan perceived bureaucratic inefficiency, but there’s tons of data out there showing how the sausage is actually made and why it’s not all so cut and dry.

 

[LuketheDog]

I think that is pretty much entirely wrong and willfully short sighted.

We'll agree to disagree, I know who Colorado sends to congress every session...

 

[Forkyfinder]

I've been with the FS less than a decade, so I don't have the long term perspective of some people here. But the amount of growth in terms of overhead personnel has been insane. A huge number of people are being promoted into GS-11 and above "email jobs" - telework positions where some of them work quite hard and a lot of them lay low all day trying to look busy while no one really knows what they do. Meanwhile we can't fill vital field going and customer service positions.

The retirement of the baby boomer generation, along with the increasing number of these overhead jobs, has caused a personnel crisis that has been ongoing since I started in the agency. So many field going positions are filled by rookies that two or three of them can't do the work of a single veteran employee, and it takes years for them to catch up - except that they're being promoted before they even learn to be proficient at the jobs they're in.

So I'm hearing that our region can't afford to pay the salaries of its employees, although we still feel understaffed. I do believe it. Things have just worked out where hiring priorities have not been focused on getting people placed and trained up in vital positions that actually manage resources and interact with the public.

Sorry for the rant.

Dont be sorry. People should hear this.

 

[jimh406]

I laugh when people have never looked at a government agency budget

Kind of a shame that you make assumptions about people you don't know.

 

[SAJ-99]

Kind of a shame that you make assumptions about people you don't know.

Prove me wrong. This is the internet. The whole damn thing is based on assumptions.

 

[schmalts]

You would hope someone with business management would look at trimming the waste and over-bloated areas to put money where it's needed most. There's very few businesses or agencies that don't sometime need a good look at where the money is going and is it value added. Maybe lack of funding will spur some accountability to make sure money is going where needed most.

 

[338win]

The amount of worthless mid-high GS employees I have met is terrifying. Way too many mouth breathers retired in place wasting money when they couldn’t keep good first lines and wage grades. Idk how the FS works but I know several DOD agencies that could slash the budget by 20% and not lose any efficiency. One site lost a half billion in equipment during annual audits. Amazing what those funds could be used for if allocated without corruption/incompetence.

 

[brian flatlander]

Easy fix to problem, have states with the residents who think they own the Forerst Service land, and the wildlife on it kick in a little more.

 

[schmalts]

The amount of worthless mid-high GS employees I have met is terrifying. Way too many mouth breathers retired in place wasting money when they couldn’t keep good first lines and wage grades. Idk how the FS works but I know several DOD agencies that could slash the budget by 20% and not lose any efficiency. One site lost a half billion in equipment during annual audits. Amazing what those funds could be used for if allocated without corruption/incompetence.

I bet there's plenty. I've heard stories from a buddy working in NM that has some real dandies working in his FS office. I'll never forget the time me and my son stopped at a parking pull off area near Glenwood springs to trout fish the Colorado and a young lady was in a FS outfit sitting in a chair on the edge of the paved lot reading a book. I asked what she was doing and I don't remember the response but when we got down to the river I told my son it was an example of waste of funds.

 

[BuzzH]

I bet there's plenty. I've heard stories from a buddy working in NM that has some real dandies working in his FS office. I'll never forget the time me and my son stopped at a parking pull off area near Glenwood springs to trout fish the Colorado and a young lady was in a FS outfit sitting in a chair on the edge of the paved lot reading a book. I asked what she was doing and I don't remember the response but when we got down to the river I told my son it was an example of waste of funds.

Probably a volunteer, in particular if they're wearing a pickle suit.

 

[TheTone]

Easy fix to problem, have states with the residents who think they own the Forerst Service land, and the wildlife on it kick in a little more.

They and other agencies are already doing a bunch of work for FS through GNA contracts. Around me that seems to mostly be focused on some trail work, thinning projects leaving tons and tons of slash behind and absolutely hammering timber

 

[SAJ-99]

There's very few businesses or agencies that don't sometime need a good look at where the money is going and is it value added.

100%. I also suspect that is true of every company too. I think it is the state of America at this point. Given the number of post on HT I see about when people can retire, I think giving 110% to any job is a pipe dream. I'm not faulting them, just saying it is hard to give to a public job where you are constantly criticized, sometimes openly and sometimes on boards like this, simply for being a public employee. Add to that it is difficult to see direct results of your efforts or the instances where someone above you torpedos a good idea because of someone with "influence" disagreed with it. It is a thankless job.

 

[Nameless Range]

As someone who lives in a county that is nearly 2/3 USFS land and has for 35 years, who works with the USFS through a federal/state sanctioned working group, who chairs a county board that frequently works with the USFS, and puts fires out with them in our rural fire district, my repeated experience working with the majority of the public servants in that agency is that of hard working folks dealing with severe resource constraints, not enough $, and not enough staff to do all the things that should and need to be done.

 

[Bonasababy]

The amount of worthless mid-high GS employees I have met is terrifying. Way too many mouth breathers retired in place wasting money when they couldn’t keep good first lines and wage grades. Idk how the FS works but I know several DOD agencies that could slash the budget by 20% and not lose any efficiency. One site lost a half billion in equipment during annual audits. Amazing what those funds could be used for if allocated without corruption/incompetence.

Brother used to work as an auditor at the DOD contract audit agency. I feel confident in validating the worst rating for efficiency in all of government.

 

[Bonasababy]

They and other agencies are already doing a bunch of work for FS through GNA contracts. Around me that seems to mostly be focused on some trail work, thinning projects leaving tons and tons of slash behind and absolutely hammering timber

Lots of timber sales using GNA in my state. Not all are beneficial to hunting or fish and wildlife.