The King's Elk -- Op-ed in Wyofile

[Treeshark]

Most hunters I know don't agree with any set aside tags, raffle, auction or otherwise.

Don't conflate raffle tags as having support, they're just more palatable than a tag going to the highest bidder.

I don’t know man, did you read through that thread? There are dozens more like it on HT. They seem to be very well supported.

Even by you

 

[BuzzH]

I don’t know man, did you read through that thread? There are dozens more like it on HT. They seem to be very well supported.

Even by you

View attachment 335147

Right, it's better than going to the highest bidder, but my friend would vote to shit can raffle tags and keep them in the state draw, all day long.

If you knew the story of that raffle tag, you'd know exactly why.

An absolute joke.

 

[Treeshark]

If you knew the story of that raffle tag, you'd know exactly why.

I think if the juicy details of a lot of these raffle tags were brought to light, people probably wouldn’t be thrilled with what they saw.

My point is that they seem to receive fairly widespread support on HT, while LO tags don’t (ostensibly because they violate some part of the PTD and/or NAM).

I personally see some logical inconsistency in that- I won’t put words in anyone else’s mouth, but it sounds to me like you might as well.

 

[Bluffgruff]

I am not sure I agree with anything in that long sentence. I can’t help but think you may be stuck in the past a bit on this issue as well.

1. Colorado and NM LO tags are a net benefit for the majority of beneficiaries (most of which are non hunters). I would think this would be intuitively obvious, but perhaps greater explanation is needed.

2. Gaining money or flaunting NAM… So what? NAM is an idea, not a law. Besides, so do raffle tags and many other things that we seem to have little problem with.

3. Public wildlife for private benefit? Again, so what? There are 1000’s of examples of this that we have no problems with. Besides, these tags can be purchased by anyone. In fact, they often become far more publicly accessible to people (especially those in 49 other states) than they would be via the draw.

4. Last one- the public doesn’t have access to this land or wildlife now, and they won’t be getting it anytime soon without money changing hands.




Reading misinformation on LO tags, such as is in the author’s article, tends to compel me forth- as does the constant loss of opportunity as a NR. I apologize if you find it obnoxious or rude, I do try to always be respectful.

All of your points are well refuted in the article, so I won't spend any time on that.

You constantly assert that landowner tags are known a priori to be best for wildlife, landowners, and non-landowner hunters, and that we should all just roll over and submit to your superior intellect and knowledge on the subject. You are wrong, and I will continue to push back at every possible chance against yours and others' chipping away at a system that continues to work better for wildlife and the public who own them than what you are proposing.

I bid you good day, sir.

 

[BuzzH]

I think if the juicy details of a lot of these raffle tags were brought to light, people probably wouldn’t be thrilled with what they saw.

My point is that they seem to receive fairly widespread support on HT, while LO tags don’t (ostensibly because they violate some part of the PTD and/or NAM).

I personally see some logical inconsistency in that- I won’t put words in anyone else’s mouth, but it sounds to me like you might as well.

Don't mistake very low tolerance with support.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Can someone make a thread for treecarp to have mental masturbation exercises in?

This "private elk tag" worship in everythread is a for me.

 

[Treeshark]

This "private elk tag" worship in everythread is a for me.

Cmon dude, you have tagged me on multiple occasions to draw me into this type of discussion. It’s not like it’s off-topic, read the article in the opening post.

It seems to me that you would prefer to just spend your time in an echo-chamber- what good comes of that? If you think I’m wrong, tell me specifically why- that is how we learn and adapt our thoughts.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Cmon dude, you have tagged me on multiple occasions to draw me into this type of discussion. It’s not like it’s off-topic, read the article in the opening post.

It seems to me that you would prefer to just spend your time in an echo-chamber- what good comes of that? If you think I’m wrong, tell me specifically why- that is how we learn and adapt our thoughts.

Its a race to the bottom for decent hunting for a diy NR or R.

You are short on convincing anyone here - for a reason. Your arguments arent coherent with reality.

 

[406dn]

Here are a few things I have never done, nor support.

The various auction tags are anathema to me. They are a naked gift to the very well off, to fulfill their big game hunting wet dreams. I wish they disappeared yesterday.

The land owner tags are a very small step down from the auction tags. I MIGHT reconsider if the tags were for cows only.

The raffle tags are a shakedown by the FWP to get more money for a tag than the limited draw provides. I've not yet purchased a raffle tag, and have no plans to ever do so.

I like to think that if money was no object, I'd refrain from buying my way to a bighorn tag. Since it is a consideration, I'll never know for certain if I'm that principled.

 

[antlerradar]

The problem with landowner tags is they just about force you to commercialize your ranch. I live in one of the more sought after draw units in the state. I almost never have to look at the Web to know when the draw has started. Almost with out fail I will be getting multiple calls from people I know looking for a place to hunt now that they have drawn a tag. Same is true for my dad and brother. Because the draw is limited, for the most part we can work just about everyone into an elk hunt, and even reach out to a few lucky tag holders and invite some. That would change with landowner tags. With landowner tags, now I would have people calling wanting a landowner tag. Of course there would not be enough tags or elk to accommodate everyone so I would have to choose who gets to hunt. It would quickly turn political, between family, between friends. The only fair way to distribute the tags would be to the highest bidder. The easiest way would be to sell them to an outfitter and let them decide who gets to hunt. I would much rather FWP is the one deciding who gets the tags and avoid the political landmines that landowner tags would bring.

 

[Treeshark]

Do you foresee a scenario in which it would be mandatory that landowners accept these tags? Couldn’t you just say no?

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Are you suggesting that a vast majority of HT members would not vote to ban all raffle, auction, and transferable LO tags?

Start a poll...

Well, it ain’t often that we agree so I’ll still roll my eyes, scoff and leave you with a silent salute…

Start the poll!

 

[antlerradar]

Do you foresee a scenario in which it would be mandatory that landowners accept these tags? Couldn’t you just say no?

If the tags are available, people are going to be pressuring you to get one for them. Simply not accepting tags will not avoid the political crap.

 

[Treeshark]

Simply not accepting tags will not avoid the political crap.

I’ve never heard that claim from a landowner in NM or Colorado before, but I don’t know your specific situation and certainly have no reason to doubt you.

Nevertheless, if THE (singlar) issue with LO tags could be solved by them literally doing nothing, that doesn’t seem like a bad deal to me.

 

[TOGIE]

You constantly assert that landowner tags are known a priori to be best for wildlife, landowners, and non-landowner hunters, and that we should all just roll over and submit to your superior intellect and knowledge on the subject.

This is the primary issue.

Treeshark and Seeth have brought up interesting points that have at times given me things to chew on and broadened my thinking and perspective.

But, Treeshark has also latched hard onto an argument that seems to largely be borne out of spite due to the worsening attitudes and allocations towards the western NR. It's an interesting argument, some of the points of which are worth digging into but that does not mean it is "intuitively obvious" that "LO tags are a net benefit for the majority of beneficiaries" or the best way to solve these issues in the west. I accept that it's a valid opinion that it's a good, maybe best, way to solve these issues, but it's not fact.

Whenever someone uses words like "intuitively obvious" without ever constructing an argument larger than one sentence or addressing and refuting counter points it's best to be careful with that argument, or just ignore it, because it's not an argument.

 

[Treeshark]

Whenever someone uses words like "intuitively obvious" without ever constructing an argument larger than one sentence or addressing and refuting counter points

Are you accusing me of not writing enough on this topic? If so, challenge accepted!

 

[Archer86]

Treeshark is so set on landowner tags why dont we test it out in the ballot box and see if the majority of residents in colorado agree with you?

 

[antlerradar]

I’ve never heard that claim from a landowner in NM or Colorado before, but I don’t know your specific situation and certainly have no reason to doubt you.

Nevertheless, if THE (singlar) issue with LO tags could be solved by them literally doing nothing, that doesn’t seem like a bad deal to me.

My bet is the NM and CO landowners you have heard from want the money. They value the money more than family and friends.

 

[Treeshark]

My bet is the NM and CO landowners you have heard from want the money. They value the money more than family and friends.

No doubt you’re right about that.

Not painting you with this brush- but I’m not so sure that the average Montana or Wyoming landowner is much different than those in NM/CO in that regard.

 

[cgasner1]

No doubt you’re right about that.

Not painting you with this brush- but I’m not so sure that the average Montana or Wyoming landowner is much different than those in NM/CO in that regard.

think you would be surpised. I’m friends with one of art’s neighbors while art is one of a kind the neighbor has a lot of the same qualities. That ranch will never be leased or guided as long and the rancher is above the ground and I a can almost guarantee you his kids will continue on with that