So what happened to the "let's bash landowners thread"?

[The Hedgehog]

Been there, done that, still do actually, most of the places I hunt for muleys make the background in your pic look like the the back nine at the country club, I still get around pretty good to say te least.

Good for you. The background wasn't an attempt to impress you. The highlight of the photo is the smile, as with these ones..

 

[BuzzH]

stillookinfor200...

I think you better get your facts straight.

Why would you compare hunting units in Eastern Montana with Western Montana...makes absolutely no sense?

Whats the problem with the 600's? Because all the years I hunted there, I didnt see any problem with mule deer and how they were managed. Theres a genetic dead-sea in that country, but theres plenty of old bucks. No big deal to shoot a 5-6+ year old deer, but genetically a deer of that age in that country was about a 140 class deer, thats just whre they topped out antler wise. We shot deer that were up to 8-10 years old and they werent much better, but they were getting old.

You could close hunting in that country for the next 20 years and you'd likely never produce a booner. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

 

[Oak]

New signature...

 

[The Hedgehog]

Legend quote. Could a UM grad really come up with that on his own?

Sometimes photos are telling, but probably not in this case..

An interesting fact about the above doe kill photos is they were taken on private land which is open to ALL hunters, even for the hunting of tremendous trophy bucks, open for 11 weeks of hunting. And ironically, who might own the place?

 

[Tom]

Change in management practices will grow bigger deer. There have been studies done on that.

This is not a tip, its an answer to your question, Greenhorn. Its from TPWD hunting links:

Here's a link, e.g. http://www.tyhp.org

Eight categories of drawn hunts offer hunting by supervised youth only. On these hunts, only the youth (between 8 and 16 years of age) will be allowed to hunt; however, the youth must be supervised by a non-hunting adult (18 years of age or older) who possesses a valid hunting license. The Application fee and the hunt permit fee is waived for all participants in youth only hunts.

Fees
Fees that are involved with this program are as follows:

Each applicant 17 years of age or older is charged a $3 or $10 application fee according to the hunt applied for. If you are drawn for a hunt, then each applicant 17 years of age or older is charged a permit fee. Permit fees will be requested when you are notified of selection for a hunt.

On Youth Only hunts, both the application fee and the permit fee are waived for both the non-hunting adult supervisor and the youth hunter.
Special Permit recipients are selected by a random drawing. This system contains all information and application screens necessary to apply for the drawing for these Special Permits.

The 8 categories of youth only hunts are:

Youth Only

Youth Only Alligator
Youth Only Gun Deer; Either Sex
Youth Only Gun Deer; Anterless/Spike
Youth Only Deer Management; Either Sex
Youth Only Feral Hog
Youth Only Javelina
Youth Only Spring Turkey
Youth Only Exotic

The out of state over the counter youth liscense to hunt deer, hog, javelina, exotics, and turkey, etc. is $6.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Change in management practices will grow bigger deer. There have been studies done on that.

Really. Tom you are so smart. Now, take that sentence and apply it to Montana, a wilderness area that holds a ton of acreage, very light hunting pressure, good buck to doe ratios, and deer that die of old age. What management practice do you pluck out of your ass that will grow bigger deer?? Maybe FWP could airdrop some loads of soy or mega buck feed into some of the highcountry basins and send in a crew to put down some food plots? Maybe could rig up a corn flinger or two up there.. No doubt places grow bigger deer if managed properly, but not ALL places will yeild results.

I'm short on time to look through the Texas links, but thanks.

Hey.. here's a region 6 buck taken this fall in an area that has 11 weeks of hunting available... not sure on the specificis but the area it came from has public, private, and a lot of block management. Claimed to have been taken on public land.

 

[sreekers]

Tom,
The way we manage animals does have an effect on numbers and "quality" of animals. However, let me state this. Texas is a much different place than the Rocky Mountain West. If I remember correctly Texas manages based on number of deer per county. You have your one buck, and two buck counties. This means that there are more deer in the two buck counties than there are the one buck counties.

Now, I want you to look at the area surrounding Jackson Hole. Then I want you to note that there is a huge Elk Refuge there. The number of elk there vary from winter to winter, but the thing to note is that the animals in the RMW are very migratory in nature. They do not inhabit a certain county their whole life. Some elk in areas with less forage can travel as much as 20 miles in one day.

Mule Deer have their summer ranges, and their winter ranges. Many of them choose to winter on ranches that don't allow hunting to the public. They choose these areas for many of the same reasons the ranchers did years ago during the land grabs. Access to water, green fields, and relatively hidden from the elements. Many times we experience our first major snow in early October, and this tends to move deer to these areas. In turn we see migratory deer head into ranchers property, and many are never afforded a chance to hunt them. I am even talking in the case of doe/fawn tags.

Management is different here than it is in the Lone Star state. The animals here are much different than the animals there, and management will be quite different.

 

[sreekers]

GH, your signature line about made me spit up laughing all over my computer.

 

[Tom]

Really. Tom you are so smart. ... No doubt places grow bigger deer if managed properly, but not ALL places will yeild results.
...

I think we basically agree, its just sloppy typing. I'm short on time to point it all out, but thanks anyway.

Can you name a place where better management would not yield results?

What if we got scouting pictures of the top 10 bucks in that unit and made them off limits? Wouldn't we get great genes passed on more and that yield better results? They'd all start being like that big guy, not just a few and far between one, right? That's an imaginary management tool, but it comes under management practices.

Suppose we took all the predators out of that wilderness unit, really hammered them, wouldn't the deer and elk survival go up and you'd get more of those trophies, so then you'd have more tags each year. You think the predator pressure, balance is perfect there?
I don't know, I'm asking, but I'm thinking there are very few places where the management is optimal for the management goals specified in their management plans. If it is, I'm thinking the management goals can be increased then. Its the basic idea, the world is not perfect.

If the area is bigger than a county then the management plan has to be bigger than a county. It will still yield results.

 

[sreekers]

The point was that they are migratory, may not be in one unit at any given time. You have to manage five areas in accord to yield the desired results. Again, all based on how the animals travel.

 

[Tom]

You could manage the migratory corridoors too, right? Make sure they exist, are protected, not developed with subdivisions, etc.

 

[Oak]

You could manage the migratory corridoors too, right? Make sure they exist, are protected, not developed with subdivisions, etc.

What about developed with natural gas wells?

 

[The Hedgehog]

That's an imaginary management tool

You are now speaking about things you are familiar with.

 

[Stillookinfor200]

I could feel the love even before I logged on, let me respond....Ill just copy/paste...yall know what words were typed on your own computer so I dont need to addess who said what, it dosent matter probably any more than my response does to you....

....Change in management practices will grow bigger deer.....

TRUE, very TRUE, I dont care what state your talking about, this isnt rocket science.

.....Could a UM grad really come up with that on his own?....

Not sure if this was directed towards me, but who said I even graduated from HS?

.....Why would you compare hunting units in Eastern Montana with Western Montana...makes absolutely no sense?.....

Makes sense to ME, management catering to a certain population make up works, again I dont care what state or Mt region you are talking about.

......Whats the problem with the 600's? Because all the years I hunted there, I didnt see any problem with mule deer and how they were managed. Theres a genetic dead-sea in that country, but theres plenty of old bucks. No big deal to shoot a 5-6+ year old deer, but genetically a deer of that age in that country was about a 140 class deer, thats just whre they topped out antler wise. We shot deer that were up to 8-10 years old and they werent much better, but they were getting old......

Whew, Ill try not to go on and on about this one, kinda hits a soft spot, personally, There is ALMOST a genetic dead sea there now, true, the racks in my grandathers Tack shed tell me differently, I remember alot more hogs from as recent as the early 80s, and yes, now, even occasionally, 600s produce a whopper, those bucks can only screw so many does, there ARE still some genes there, Im sure of it, its just kinda been a free for all for so many years I see less and less. I SEE A PROBLEM WITH HOW THE MULE DEER POPULATIONS ARE MANAGED IN 600S FOR ONE. I let that be known at offices, in the field and at meetings, a couple good bucks have come out of the Fort Peck Management area last year and this year, there IS potential there, and in many other areas in Mt, this I know.

......You could close hunting in that country for the next 20 years and you'd likely never produce a booner. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken shit.......

Ahhhhhh, but you can at least TRY, and it very well might take all of those 20 yrs.

.....Area 270 offers a quality hunt now?.....

270 offers what I consider quality over the 600s by far, I would STILL decrease the buck tags there (270), especially since there arent as many landowners throwing a it about feeding them, 270 is OK, it could be way better. I DO like some of the genetics from the area.

....By the way.. I'm happy killing the size of animals I do..

Im glad for that, and thats all that matters, like I said before some of the best "trophies" I have seen taken werent "trophies" because of their antler/horn size. You will never here me bashing (OK, accidentally in a heated argument, but I dont mean it, promise) but I really try not to bash anyone about what they kill AS LONG AS THEY ARE HAPPY AND RESPECTFULL AND THANKFULL for what they have taken...big peve again...I know too many people that have to whack something, anything with antlers and dont give a crap about the rack, often times these are the same people who are complaining there arent enough big bucks to be had.

.....consequently the antlers won't grow much bigger with a change in management. ......Hey learn to read. I never said a "change in management in some areas wont grow bigger deer."

??? Guess what you said I simply misconstrued....and still do.

With that said let me say nothing makes me happier than seeing our youth with an animal, especially after a great hunt, Id gladly put down my weapons the rest of my life if I had to make a choice between myself or my girls continuing to hunt, my most memorable hunts have ended with other people, and many times young people taking an animal that puts a permagrin on their face for some time.

That makes me happy to see that, thanks for sharing.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Im glad for that, and thats all that matters, like I said before some of the best "trophies" I have seen taken werent "trophies" because of their antler/horn size.

Maybe they just don't hold up to what you consider trophies, but these ones put a smile on my face.. Bucks that qualify for a B&C certificate, taken on public land in Montana tend to do that to a guy.

 

[Stillookinfor200]

Ohhh, back on the original subject, landowners and leasing, still havent heard a good legitimate plan (that would actually work for everyone) about this subject, its obvious many folks arent happy with the situation, so how do we cure it?

Someone had mentioned a program that lets hunters put in time in trade for hunting rights, I like the concept, but we all have the option of doing that now, and I know some people who do. Let me expand on that idea...many hunters know a trade, maybe dont know alot about where the heck you should or shouldnt be standing durring shipping or when to grab the dehorning iron, but many of you Im sure know a trade well, that a landowner may like to utilize, go knock on some doors, shake some hands, plant some seeds (not in the field, in the landowners head) leave your contact info, you just might get a call back. So, heres something else, if the landowner is a "cash talks" kinda guy, get a half dozen of your buddies together and make a few bucks, paint a couple houses a year, take a few weekends to put in a nice cedar fence for someone in town, take the sheds you collect and cash them in....THEN go see Mr landowner again and propose that you and your friends will compensate him (ugghhhh, dear God COMPENSATE) for not only YOU being allowed to hunt there, but myself and the rest of the public that didnt do squat. Theres an idea.

Its very often a missunderstood fact that ALL landowners are greedy, selfish beggars that always leave a hand extended waiting for someone to put cash in it. I just counted up 8 different landowners that I could think of sitting here(some with substantial tracts) who at one time, either let all of the general public hunt, (and have now closed it off to ALL or only let very close family hunt...still no $) or that WERE at one time under the block management program and have now canned it, and recieve LESS MONEY (through a private lease) or NO MONEY for closing it off altogether because dealing with a bunch of folks they couldnt babysit was nothing but headaches.

So explain their greed to me if you will?

 

[Stillookinfor200]

Re the bucks, very nice, congrats to the hunters.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Its a cruel World, so keep doing what you can to change it to your liking, as will I.

I am guessing you spend more time worrying about what you selfishly want and don't spend much time working for others. I think Dickens wrote a book about someone like you, frequently read this time of year.

No nonsense at all...thats the way America (at least sometimes) works....work harder, get rewarded, hmmmm, interesting concept. Thats the way I was brought up, on 80 hr weeks, still have my share of them, its worked.

Sorry you have to work 80 hour weeks to make ends meet. Sucks to be you.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say most of the folks on these sights whining and crying about PUBLIC game, and PRIVATE land and LEASES would be singing a different tune if they had a hundred thousand acres or so of prime game habitat and STILL had the same passion for hunting they have now. Thats it, just open the place to the public so we can hunt OUR game, hopefully we'll remember to take care of your land and not shoot your livestock, hopefully we will find some way to try to compensate you a little bit for feeding the critters we like to murder a few months out of the year.

You think people spend time dreaming of having a 100k acres to hunt??? I have way more land than that to hunt, and all it costs me is a little bit of income tax each year. I like to call it My Own Private Idaho, but others seem to call it the Frank Church Wilderness Area.

I see where kids are coming from about the "publicly" owned wildlife to a certain extent, its just the words Privately Owned Land have a little more pull to say the least.

You are a sorry excuse for a hunter and a adovcate of hunting if you care more about landowners than about the public's wildlife. People like you that dream of making Montana be like Texas will be the end of hunting in Montana.

.....but I dont think many of you can sit there, imagine owning a large tract of YOUR favorite terrain, with a superb and healthy population of the game YOU like to kill, and still say, come one, come all, this is YOUR game too, come to my land and kill it....

I have exclusive access to some pretty good private land for hunting. I have hunted it 5 times this year, and EVERY time I have hunted it I have had a different kid with me that was under 17 years old. I guess I just have different ideals of what good hunting is.

Get real folks....like I said, what a cruel World.

Maybe you should have got an education and you wouldn't have been so affected by the cruel world.

 

[The Hedgehog]

So explain their greed to me if you will?

List their names and we can find out..

 

[The Hedgehog]

As opposed to putting cash in somebody's hand, I'd rather walk into the forest and take a deer like this.. so much less complicated..