School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[tjones]

Putting a sane minded, recreation shooting civilian with a 9 up against a not so sane minded shooter with no regard for life and carrying a rifle does not sound like a good plan. Taking a handgun to a rifle fight,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

If a teach misses in the mayhem and kills a kid do you suppose they could live with that?


There needs to be a plan though.

 

[JLS]

I have consistently called BS on this claim. These horrific crimes are done by the outliers and the outliers have always been there. In fact, if I am interpreting the data correctly, our crime rate is way lower now than back in the day when we all supposedly had morals.

For example:
View attachment 80408

I agree. The outliers have always been there, and always will be. They just find more atrocious ways of acting out their aggression and sickness. Our society doesn’t have any to pay for and or deal with mental health issues, so we pay for it in this manner.

 

[JLS]

Now with our local officers our response plans are once there are 3 officers, they enter and go directly to the shots. There is no methodical clearing of rooms, they engage and stop the target ASAP.

Not to pick nits, but the wait for three officers is a thing of the past. The goal is to find the shooter ASAP and kill him. If you have to wait for another there better be a damned good reason (multiple assailants). The evolution of response techniques has been very good since Columbine.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Not to pick nits, but the wait for three officers is a thing of the past. The goal is to find the shooter ASAP and kill him. If you have to wait for another there better be a damned good reason (multiple assailants). The evolution of response techniques has been very good since Columbine.

Agreed, data shows that most deaths occur in the first minute or two so there is immediate response.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I have a aunt who is a special education teacher, before she was a teacher she spent 11 years With the department of corrections as a prison guard. My uncle is a high school physics teacher and avid competition pistol shooter. Both would gladly carry.

Good examples .... but they represent an extreme exception and very small minority in the world of educational professionals.

 

[Frenchy]

Do I feel it would change any dynamics of the student teacher interactions? Not likely, other than you would not see nearly as many videos where some thug decides to attack a teacher.

Not trying to be a smartass, but what kind of videos do you think we WOULD see in your scenario?

 

[Sytes]

I have consistently called BS on this claim. These horrific crimes are done by the outliers and the outliers have always been there. In fact, if I am interpreting the data correctly, our crime rate is way lower now than back in the day when we all supposedly had morals.

For example:
View attachment 80408

Rob, I've gotta say, I'm surprised at the dramatic drop in murder by firearms since approx 1995...

This pew research goes in depth w/ an estimated 12% actually aware the firearm murder rate has dramatically dropped! On top of this the various other stats within are very compelling and further question why our focus is on firearm ownership considering the rise in firearm ownership along the same time as the reduction of murders... /Head scratcher there...

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/
I value statistics over the "trust me" type posters. That really makes another head scratcher over video games, parenting style, etc!

Thanks for sharing.

Edited: interesting, there are many theories though one very interesting one on why the rise in firearm murders seems plausible if not one I find agreement with.

A review by the National Academy of Sciences of factors driving recent crime trends (Blumstein and Rosenfeld, 2008) cited a decline in rates in the early 1980s as the young boomers got older, then a flare-up by mid-decade in conjunction with a rising street market for crack cocaine, especially in big cities. It noted recruitment of a younger cohort of drug seller with greater willingness to use guns. By the early 1990s, crack markets withered in part because of lessened demand, and the vibrant national economy made it easier for even low-skilled young people to find jobs rather than get involved in crime.

 

[VikingsGuy]

. . . question why our focus is on firearm ownership considering the rise in firearm ownership along the same time as the reduction of murders...

My best guesses are (a) the emotional effect of "scary black guns", including their role in "scary war movies", on the average gun-illiterate urban voter; and, (b) the ability of social media to quickly fans the flames and make each incident feel personal to a mass audience - a little bit like when television reporting on Vietnam brought that war to living rooms like no war before it. Without these two elements, my guess is gun control wouldn't get nearly the attention. That is why some of us are willing to move "scary black guns" to Class III as a way to head off worse regulations in the future on more traditional hunting/self defense weapons - not because you couldn't kill a bunch of kids with a semi-auto shotgun or with a stolen AR, but because of the political optics of the AR-platform weapons and the benefits that gives the left.

 

[Tradewind]

Putting a sane minded, recreation shooting civilian with a 9 up against a not so sane minded shooter with no regard for life and carrying a rifle does not sound like a good plan. Taking a handgun to a rifle fight,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

If a teach misses in the mayhem and kills a kid do you suppose they could live with that?


There needs to be a plan though.

Once again you're basically comparing ballistics to ballistics. Not mind set.
So to take the other side of your comments, you would prefer that they sit there and have nothing but maybe a door between them and the shooter. No resistance. And you have solved or deterred what? Nothing.
Most people who chose to carry take it seriously. Elks made some very salient points: Not all teachers should carry, but just like a cross section of society some are comfortable doing so and competent and would be a very good deterrent. Nobody needs to know who is carrying at school, just like on an airline. I used to sit and try to figure out who the air Marshall were on the flight.
Elks made several very good points and so far all I have seen is criticism of them. We are far enough down this thread it's time for some solutions.
How many police officers have accidents with firearms and we just pass it off. How many guns have swat and police lost?
How many kids are going to be standing, still alive between a shooter and a teacher with a firearm, or anywhere near them for that matter? From what I have seen they are either shot, running the other way or hiding

I'll take someone like elks w/ concealed carry in a school any day. Because right now it's just a free fire zone and every nutcase knows it. This may not stop completely but you will put and serious damper on once a couple of them get shot by someone on school grounds.

 

[Gunflint]

How about this for conspiracy guys

Page 225 from the book Behold a Pale Horse by Bill Cooper written in 1991

The government encouraged the manufacture and importation of
military firearms for the criminals to use. This is intended to foster a
feeling of insecurity, which would lead the American people to voluntarily
disarm themselves by passing laws against firearms. Using drugs and
hypnosis on mental patients in a process called Orion, the CIA inculcated
the desire in these people to open fire on schoolyards and thus inflame the
antigun lobby. This plan is well under way, and so far is working perfectly.
The middle class is begging the government to do away with the 2nd
amendment.

 

[tjones]

Once again you're basically comparing ballistics to ballistics. Not mind set.
So to take the other side of your comments, you would prefer that they sit there and have nothing but maybe a door between them and the shooter. No resistance. And you have solved or deterred what? Nothing.
Most people who chose to carry take it seriously. Elks made some very salient points: Not all teachers should carry, but just like a cross section of society some are comfortable doing so and competent and would be a very good deterrent. Nobody needs to know who is carrying at school, just like on an airline. I used to sit and try to figure out who the air Marshall were on the flight.
Elks made several very good points and so far all I have seen is criticism of them. We are far enough down this thread it's time for some solutions.
How many police officers have accidents with firearms and we just pass it off. How many guns have swat and police lost?
How many kids are going to be standing, still alive between a shooter and a teacher with a firearm, or anywhere near them for that matter? From what I have seen they are either shot, running the other way or hiding

I'll take someone like elks w/ concealed carry in a school any day. Because right now it's just a free fire zone and every nutcase knows it. This may not stop completely but you will put and serious damper on once a couple of them get shot by someone on school grounds.

When it comes to mind set take into consideration value of life, the teacher wants to get home at the end of the day to see family, the shooter gave up on that long ago. One has everything to lose, the other nothing to lose. I'm saying something like what is done in airports needs to happen and we have to be ready to pay for it. Single point of entry, metal detectors, trained security. The wheels have come off.

As a footnote, my daughter is a teacher and my son LEO.

 

[ChrisS]

I have consistently called BS on this claim. These horrific crimes are done by the outliers and the outliers have always been there. In fact, if I am interpreting the data correctly, our crime rate is way lower now than back in the day when we all supposedly had morals.

For example:

Tangential to this, there is interesting research correlating the decline of the violent crime rate with the end of leaded gasoline. Basically, as leaded gasoline was phased out, the violent crime rate decreases. It's a correlation that is repeated globally and temporally. It's not considered the only factor, but the research strongly suggests that it plays a part.

 

[RobG]

This pew research goes in depth w/ an estimated 12% actually aware the firearm murder rate has dramatically dropped! On top of this the various other stats within are very compelling and further question why our focus is on firearm ownership considering the rise in firearm ownership along the same time as the reduction of murders... /Head scratcher there...

Sytes - because making semi-auto weapons w/ clips (sic)* harder to get is about reducing the mass shootings. Mass shootings are what has gone up since we were kids while the general crime rate has gone down. The reason is an idiot can easily grab a semi-auto and a dozen clips when he gets pissed at the world.

In terms of deadliness, these weapons are more comparable to machine guns than to the other weapons we can buy with a simple background check. It's is not too unreasonable to treat them more closely to class III weapons. Let the people really want them have them, but make the purchase a serious commitment. They aren't toys. Seems like we owe at least that much "sacrifice" to the parents of these kids. Anyone who doesn't feel that way should have to explain to the parents why you can't be inconvenienced by more than a 10 minute wait.

I understand that these are a small percentage of the overall deaths, but every time one happens America (and the world) comes to a stop, and for good reason. The U.S. would throw the Constitution away if these were done by Muslims so we can throw up a barrier a little higher than a 10 minute wait during a background check that doesn't even check if you are on the terrorist watch list.

Just my opinion,
rg

*When our trucks had guns in the racks we called them clips so if we are going to pretend like those were the good old days that is what I'm going to call them because it is easier to type than detachable magazines.

 

[airlocksniffer]

I've been following this thread daily and figure I'll give my $0.02. There is no single answer or anything we can point to and definitively say is the cause. AR's? As pointed out, guns are just tools and in the hands of the wrong person can be used to commit some terrible crimes. Violent video games? Perhaps in an individual who is already not mentally sound this could be a contributing factor, however, millions upon millions of people (including myself) have played FPS games and didn't shoot a bunch of people. I think mental health is a huge factor but we as a country stigmatize those with mental health issues and don't properly fund treatment for said people. We are a country of incarceration, not treatment.

Ultimately, what I think is the biggest factor is as a country we lack empathy. We have been divided and told that the other side is evil, that they don't deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. I'm pretty much agnostic leaning toward atheism but to break it down very simply, I was raised the follow the golden rule, which is the cornerstone for real empathy. When an individual is mentally unwell, has easy access to firearms and doesn't view other people as people but targets, it's no surprise we've come to this point. And unfortunately it won't be the last time.

 

[Idahoarcheryhunter]

After 9/11 we put armed marshals on flights.... We haven't had a hijacking in this country since... Just sayin

 

[PAGOAT]

I've followed this from the beginning and notice a lot of people like to give up the AR platform to save lives. That is great but the big picture is the problem, why these young adults want to do this ? Honestly a shotgun with an extended tube made to kill snow geese would have a worse outcome than an AR. So we ban the AR then the next few years its a semi shotgun then its who knows what ? I really don't know the answer but banning the gun is not. Teachers CCW would be a good start as was said earlier and not putting the person all over the news maybe would help. I hope someone smarter than me figures out a solution without our loss of guns or we "our great grand kids" will be hunting only archery.

 

[BrentD]

...but the big picture is the problem, why these young adults want to do this ?

I can agree, this is the fundamental question. Until it is addressed, there will be no end to these tragedies.

That said, I don't have the answer either.

 

[Straight Arrow]

... then its who knows what ?

I think these emotionally charged, motivated to action young adults are not going to concede to the "slippery slope" argument for inaction. They are demanding something be done and seem to be setting the stage for relentless lobbying. As I have always asserted, the NRA would be even more influential if the organization would promote viable solutions rather than continue to throw millions at preaching the slippery slope fallacy.

Teachers CCW would be a good start ...

I disagree and further assert that it will not happen to any great extent. Professional educators do not want to be armed at work. Middle school and high school classroom management and successful teaching is challenging and difficult. Adding a loaded firearm into the classroom setting is a formula for critical distraction and potential disaster.

 

[BrentD]

How sure are any of you that the NRA even wants a solution to "gun issues"??

 

[airlocksniffer]

How sure are any of you that the NRA even wants a solution to "gun issues"??

Assuming this is a rhetorical question but they don’t:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)