Rocky Mountain Front, the latest info

[JoseCuervo]

Finalshot,

There can be no assumptions here, as I have found out that there are people here who claim to be Hunters/fisherman and they argue against breaching the 4 dams on the Lower Snake River.

These same "hunters" (I actually think they must be Anti-hunting) also refuse to call for the immediate removal of all Welfare Rancher's cattle from Public Lands.

And then in the most ridiculous Anti-Hunting position, there are some who even believe that ATVs and the Fat-Assed ATV riders should not be banned from all Public Lands between August 1 of each year and July 31 of the following year.

I am sure you will be amazed at the Anti-Hunters who post in SI...

 

[Finalshot]

For Paul,

Paul, I do not spend a great deal of time searching the www. for information. I do occasionally use the www. for research. I will give you short list of some good reading on the subject of energy, energy policy and the environment. It is a book list. I'm a book person. I'm sure if you search the internet with some of the subject headings in the books I've listed you will find ample information about local/small scale energy resources.

Let the Mountains Talk, Let the Rivers Run: A Call to Those Who Would Save the Earth
by David Ross Brower

The Energy Controversy: Soft Path Questions and Answers
by Amory Lovins

Charging Ahead: The Business of Renewable Energy and What It Means for America
by John J. Berger, Lester C. Thurow

Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution
by Paul Hawken, Amory Lovins, L. Hunter Lovins

Farewell Fossil Fuels: Renewing America's Energy Policy
by Sidney Borowitz

Tomorrow's Energy: Hydrogen, Fuel Cells, and the Prospects for a Cleaner Planet
by Peter Hoffmann (Author)

More, indepth reading:

· The Ecology of Commerce: A Declaration of Sustainability by Paul Hawken (Paperback)
· Biomimicry : Innovation Inspired by Nature by Janine M. Benyus (Author) (Paperback)
· Eco-Economy: Building an Economy for the Earth by Lester R. Brown (Paperback)
· The Natural Step for Business: Wealth, Ecology and the Evolutionary Corporation (Conscientious Commerce) by Brian Nattrass, et al (Paperback)
· Mid-Course Correction: Toward a Sustainable Enterprise: The Interface Model by Ray Anderson (Paperback)

As for your request of me to respond about dams, I will keep it short. I won't give you any references but I will tell you that I was on a committee that was asked to review the economics associated with the removal of the four dams on the lower snake. I also was involved in a number of Clean Water Act issues along the Snake and Columbia not to mention I grew up fishing the Snake it's tribs. in Oregon, Idaho, and Washington (I was born in Walla Walla). I can tell you now that the only, and I mean only support or reason to keep the four Snake River Dams is to protect the regional yeoman culture that's only about 60 years old, and, because of the precedence that would be set if they (the dams) were removed. Those dams mean much more than $$$$$$, they represent icons to a newly establishe euro-culture and society. If this issue was about the best use of the river for the most people the dams would be gone tomorrow. There is far more economic benefit to a free flowing snake with salmon and steelhead and whitewater than there is under the current regime. There is nothing in the literature that’s worth consideration that will change this fact. The issue was never and will never be about what's best for the most over the log haul or what's legal under various statutes. It's really about but what's politically possible today. If the decision to remove the dams were based on benifits over the long run, they would be gone yesterday. Those dams would never have even been built in the first place if their cost benefit ratios were exaggerated and intentionally manipulated so as to reach the desired political outcome. They were built at the end of an era of large-scale, government funded social welfare programs and political paybacks. Now, one more thing, the entire energy output of the snake dams could be completely replaced by upgrading just ONE of the larger dams on the Columbia (Wanapum, Priest, the Dallas, etc.) The dams on the snake only produce about 5% of the energy. If all the turbines in Wanapum dam were modernized (at a cost of $1 million per turbine) they would produce more power than the four lower snake dams combined. This was not considered an option in the EIS's. Only "replaciment" of energy was cosidered. So the Corps. only looked at coal, combined cycle and natural gas as alternatives.

In the final analysis the dams will come down sooner or later, if not by the force of man (when it's time comes and it's politically possible) then by the force of gravity and water! The fish will return some day. Not likely in our time, but in time. The earth of 4 billion years old - we are flash in time.

Please, if you can find a place in the US or Canada where the total benefits of new dam construction out-weigh the total costs, and, the beneficiaries will pay the total costs, let me know. I'd like to see the numbers. My guess is you won't find a single ONE. I've been looking for a number of years. Especially if you consider the costs of construction and operation and maintenance. There's not a legal crop you can grow or enough real estate of high enough value or recreation potential on man-made lakes or power from hydro to support the construction of another major dam. Moreover, in most modern democracies today, there is little support for funding these major developments in infrastructure. I also challange you to find a private investor with enough money to build a one. This is also another reason why the future of energy is at the local or small-scale level. I don’t see the government spending the money to develop new forms of mass energy like dams or nuclear power. Transmition is another huge issue. Right now there's not enough room on the national transmission grid to deliver all the power, at the right time, to fill all the demands. A centralized energy system would require a major investment into new, more efficient and modern transmition system. Where will that money come from?

Paul, I look forward to your reply to my questions.

If you have information to dispute any of these issues please, by all means post it!

Thanks, Finalshot

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-17-2003 07:42: Message edited by: Finalshot ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

In regards to the article, why were just Montanans polled? Is not much of the land involved federally owned? I'm not saying that the local voice should not be hear, nor given more weight, but that other points of view should be welcomed as well.

FS- Thanks for the book list. I'm always looking for another book to read. BTW, check your pm's.

 

[BuzzH]

Finalshot, thanks for the last reply.

Paul has already been presented with all the facts on the Snake River dams, but he fails to comprehend. I've posted the economic situation, mitigation facts, findings from the PATH report, etc. etc. etc.

Some people just dont get it.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Finalshot,

OK, maybe you do understand the issues on the Lower Snake...

But be careful, those radical ideas you have, will soon have you labled an "Extremist", just like the Gunner....

But I would encourage more optimism on your part. Those Dams WILL come down in our lifetime, and we will once again have fishable Salmon runs in Idaho of WILD salmon.

1-Ptr,
Can you give me a summary of those books FinalShot suggested? You know how I rely on you to read the big words....

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, I'll be anxiously awaiting your reply to Finalshot's last post. This should be good for some laughs!

Finalshot, Thanks for your posts. Much of the time we don't change anyone's mind here with our posts, but we sharpen our arguments and writing skills for the real arena these debates take place in. We also learn some of the ridiculous arguments the other side cooks up and how uninformed they are. That's usually mind boggling!

 

[1_pointer]

'Gunner- I'll get that to you, right after the dams come down.

 

[JoseCuervo]

You better hurry and get reading. Those dams will be in History Books sooner than you think.

 

[Finalshot]

Looks like Paul's either doing a bunch of research or he's not interested in putten-up.

I'm sure he's just doing his homework before he replys to my questions.

See, YA!

Finalshot

 

[Oak]

Paul mentioned in one of the topics here that he was going to be gone for a while. I don't think he'll back down from an argument.

Oak

 

[BHR]

Oak,

I'm glad to see that you are still following along even after you said long ago that this debate is over.

My time is limited on the computer, and I will be keeping this debate going as time allows.

I read that the Helena Nat Forest is getting a new man in charge. Sounded like he has an open mind on this issue. He would be one who I would spend my time trying to educate.

One last thing before I go. Is "asset transfer" the same concept that Robin Hood incorporated?

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-19-2003 08:49: Message edited by: BHR ]</font>

 

[BHR]

Correction: Make that Lewis and Clark National Forest, not Helena.

Paul