Private beef out of our public land.

[archer wapiti]

That said, nearly every high mountain meadow in the Boulder Mountains is a cow chit ridden mudpit. If greater efforts were made to keep cattle out of riparian areas, the majority of local environmental impacts that folks see and get concerned about would be significantly diminished.

This is the worst part of it to me.

It's the 'Land of many uses.' a lot of things we enjoy in our homes come off public lands. Energy, raw materials like timber and ores, and of course beef. I'd not thought of the open space aspect and loss thereof if it were private and available to be subdivided, but that's another important aspect. I do get frustrated down here in New Mexico when I see nearly water feature -especially those at low elevations- that's not fenced heavily impacted by cattle.

Although I DON'T advocate transferring public land to private, I have noticed superficially (looking out the window while driving through) better range quality in low elevation west Texas grasslands where it's all private than in similar latitudes and elevations on public land in New Mexico. I think it's a matter of taking care of what you own vs. what the public owns. Like how SOME people treat their own cars vs. a rental car.

I have talked to Forest Service and BLM biologists who have confirmed this attitude by SOME ranchers towards grazing on public lands.

 

[bornintherut]

Reintroduction of the bison would obviously be a good thing but domesticated ungulates are not. Sorry doesn’t hold water.

 

[bornintherut]

I can buy that.

 

[bornintherut]

Unless you plan for the full reintroduction of the bison, cloven hoof animals are an essential part of the ecosystem.

But yes, I have seen places that were overgrazed to a point of ridiculousness. But its not the norm.

Reintroduction of the bison would obviously be a good thing but domesticated ungulates are not.

 

[bornintherut]

No, there are others who exaggerate the impact of beef grazing on public lands, but typically not due to factual widespread conditions ... moreso due to a ideological and political bent. Range management is challenging in certain areas with free roaming large grazers, but significant damage as you describe is not as typical as you contend.

Whether it's typical or not, it's still a bad idea. As far as exaggerating impacts, have you tried to pump drinking water from a spring filled with cow piss and dung? How was it? Your financial interests in beef are peeking through your comment.

 

[bornintherut]

If done right it can be beneficial http://www.wyomingextension.org/agpubs/pubs/B965R.pdf
If abused it's a big mess.

Well said.

 

[PrairieHunter]

[video]http://marcusd1.blogspot.com/2017/06/steph-curry-eating-popcorn.html[/video]

 

[bornintherut]

Rotational (is that a word?) grazing is very beneficial to the land and animals. Some overgrazing does occur, but for the most part it is minimal.

Rotational grazing IS good when done right. But that should be the task of a farmer such as Gabe Brown in ND who has done it right. Rangeland and forested areas respond differently to concentrations of beef.

 

[antlerradar]

Reintroduction of the bison would obviously be a good thing but domesticated ungulates are not. Sorry doesn’t hold water.

But the bison proof fences that landowners would erect to keep bison off there property would be a wildlife disaster.


The fire budget would need to be much bigger if there was no grazing. I don't think it is a quiescence the the recent number of large fires have coincided with reduced grazing. Less and better grazing is not the only factor leading to large fires but is certainly one of them.

 

[bornintherut]

I think public land grazing is complicated. I've shared this before, but this is an article interviewing a ranching family in the town I went high school in. http://grist.org/food/this-rancher-says-the-bundys-are-idiots-but-he-too-is-worried-about-losing-access-to-public-land/

Yes we are subsidizing grazing on Our Public Lands. But we are also subsidizing wide open spaces currently being used as ag and ranch land on private lands, which, after watching half the county I grew in up be subdivided to death, and now they are carving up the carcass, I feel open spaces are valuable thing. The incredibly low rates federal land grazers enjoy is a complicated issue and vilifying public land grazers, as so many environmental orgs do, may bite us in the a$$ IMO.

That said, nearly every high mountain meadow in the Boulder Mountains is a cow chit ridden mudpit. If greater efforts were made to keep cattle out of riparian areas, the majority of local environmental impacts that folks see and get concerned about would be significantly diminished.

"That said, nearly every high mountain meadow in the Boulder Mountains is a cow chit ridden mudpit." Ya not very enjoyable and great points.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Your financial interests in beef are peeking through your comment.

Mr. bornintherut, your comment could not be further from the truth; you know not of what you speak. My freezer has not seen beef; elk and other wild game (plus wild-caught salmon when I can acquire) is the meat of choice.
My comments are based on experience and knowledge regarding Montana public lands and typical grazing practices. Please make a valid case why it's a bad idea to allow grazing on public lands pursuant to the Taylor Grazing Act.

Incidentally, why would you pump water from a cow piss filled spring? No I haven't.

 

[hank4elk]

I thought there were some horrible grazing practices & abuse of permits in the Sierras,til I moved to NM.
Stewards of the lands, most are not. Land of entitlement gets real at times.
With conditions here as bad or worse than most have ever seen moisture wise, it goes on. The real losses if any are tax write offs. The lease was inherited,usually going to one lucky member of one family.The rest are on welfare or something cause there is no other work around here besides outfitting & guiding.Now that I think about it I bet 90% of the income in Catron county is due to use of OUR public lands,one way or another.These same folks would be real happy if it was Bundyland. Must be all the dust in their heads................................I don't get it.
There are some decent ranchers here,but not many.
10 yrs ago I would see many BLM,USFW,USDA-FS trucks that were well marked all over the place. Don't know what they were doing besides getting gas or eating..... Now all are unmarked if you see one,usually white. I see them on the hwy at times now.Rarely on a dirt road. I see a few green trucks during fire season in the woods....

 

[bornintherut]

I like cows a lot more then subdivisions and any kind of drilling

Well ya but three wrongs don't make a right.

 

[bornintherut]

Mr. bornintherut, your comment could not be further from the truth; you know not of what you speak. My freezer has not seen beef; elk and other wild game (plus wild-caught salmon when I can acquire) is the meat of choice.
My comments are based on experience and knowledge regarding Montana public lands and typical grazing practices. Please make a valid case why it's a bad idea to allow grazing on public lands pursuant to the Taylor Grazing Act.

Incidentally, why would you pump water from a cow piss filled spring? No I haven't.

Thanks for clarifying your freezer and such. Point taken. The Taylor grazing act hasn't stopped cows from polluting public waterways. Not sure why this is hard to grasp. Cows pollute, erode and compete. Period.

If the piss filled spring is the only water around, it's hard to avoid. I have a tendency to hunt the back country.

 

[Busyfarmin]

I think it's like most issues there are always some bad people that make the rest look bad. I'm not on the side of the ranchers that over graze leases and chase hunters away and act like they own public land. I am on the side of the ranchers that take care of the land work 365 days a year to help feed the world. Getting rid of cattle grazing on public Lands would get rid of alot of jobs and would make alot smaller cow herd meaning more expensive meat. Even tho sonlme of the lease prices on public grazing may be under priced at least there is income to the gov from those leases. I have hunted public land with cattle that didn't look like should be trusted very far but deffinately alot less intimidating then a bison. Also not sure what the difference would be drinking water with cattle manure and piss vs bison manure and piss.

 

[1_pointer]

Rotational grazing IS good when done right. But that should be the task of a farmer such as Gabe Brown in ND who has done it right. Rangeland and forested areas respond differently to concentrations of beef.

The practices used by Gabe Brown, can be and are often beneficial on both "rangeland and forested areas". The principles are the very same. Implementation of those practices/principles is still growing on federal lands. Budgets and red tape often slow down or even prevent that implementation.

That said, Cows pollute, erode and compete less today than any time in the managed history of public lands. Period. Not saying there aren't areas where better management couldn't be applied, but as a whole rangelands, are in better health today than in the past. The wholesale removal of livestock from public lands is not likely possible, you're energy would be much better spent on looking at ways to improve the management of that practice. By admitting that rotational grazing can be good, you're already 1/2 way there...

 

[BigHornRam]

bornintherut sounds like an Idaho transplant to me.

 

[BigHornRam]

Whether it's typical or not, it's still a bad idea. As far as exaggerating impacts, have you tried to pump drinking water from a spring filled with cow piss and dung? How was it? Your financial interests in beef are peeking through your comment.

Do you pump water from elk wallows? How was it? How do you make your living ? Trust fund activist?

 

[schmalts]

I've seen good and bad grazing. Keep in mind that without cattle there would be a lot less habitat area due to lack of water. Those tanks, wells, windmills would not be there and a lot of animals benefit from them. Worst overgrazing I saw was in NM in the Cruces Basin. An elk winterizing ground mowed down to astroturf

 

[PrairieHunter]

Is this an issue with ranchers putting more animals than they are supposed to and keeping animals on federal grazing leases longer then they are supposed to or is this an issue with USFS staff in charge of grazing leases allowing more animals than the land can support which leads to overgrazing and other damage?