Podcast on wounding

[ismith]

Resurrecting this thread with an observation.

I follow a dozen or so hunting group pages on social media, where members can contribute content. Maybe it is just the algorithms, but my feeds have been really flooded with posts of dead and unrecovered elk found by archery hunters, or are archery hunters asking if "anyone has any blood trailing dogs".

It's a moderately educated intuition - but I think archery season is filthy with wounded and unrecovered animals.

How many is filthy? I do think it happens more than we would like to admit. Would you say it’s gotten worse or better with modern archery tackle? Are hunters taking shots at the edge (or beyond) of their equipments and their own abilities?

 

[DFS]

Technology has definitely made it easier to fling arrows at longer distances. It’s the archers personal responsibility to set limits and hold themselves to it. No different than long range rifle shooting.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

Resurrecting this thread with an observation.

I follow a dozen or so hunting group pages on social media, where members can contribute content. Maybe it is just the algorithms, but my feeds have been really flooded with posts of dead and unrecovered elk found by archery hunters, or are archery hunters asking if "anyone has any blood trailing dogs".

It's a moderately educated intuition - but I think archery season is filthy with wounded and unrecovered animals.

Seems the majority of the archery hunting videos that I've seen lately include wounded animals.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Seems the majority of the archery hunting videos that I've seen lately include wounded animals.

"People" are waiting 10+ years for tags. They are willing to fling an arrow or a bullet because they know they will NEVER draw the tag again in their lifetime.

I have seen a ton of "It's now or never" shots over the last 5 years on YouTube.

 

[Nameless Range]

How many is filthy? I do think it happens more than we would like to admit. Would you say it’s gotten worse or better with modern archery tackle? Are hunters taking shots at the edge (or beyond) of their equipments and their own abilities?

I can’t speak to whether folks with modern archery gear are more bold In taking risky shots, or are more lethal due to their gear and thus have less wounding than they would otherwise.

I think my case would be quite a bit simpler.

1. Archery hunting has more wound loss(unrecovered) per Hunter than rifle hunting.

2. There’s more archery hunters every year, and thus more unrecovered hunter caused mortality.

Maybe I’m wrong on assumption one. To be clear, I am an archery hunter myself. Just a gut feeling I have about archery hunters and hunting based on nothing scientific

 

[Elky Welky]

On the one hand you have to take the shots you are given, and often the perfect shot does not present itself to hunters. I remember listening to a podcast or watching a video (not sure where/when) that basically said if you are always waiting for the perfect shot, you will never shoot an elk with a bow.

Even the best among us cannot foresee what can happen out there, and even consistent training cannot fully prepare someone for a screaming 800 lb. animal to come barreling towards them, or what their heart rate is going to be doing when that opportunity finally comes. One unforeseen branch in the wrong place is the difference between a chip shot and hours of tracking and overwhelming sadness and guilt (ask me how I know...).

I do know that wound loss is something that is factored into management. To your point: the more hunters on the landscape, the more wounded animals there will be. It probably is time to start revisiting those management decisions and thinking about how high of a rate of wound loss is tolerable.

To some of the other arguments above, people with 300 RUMs and other super magnums with expensive ammo, in my experience, are often more bold than people with bows. Bowhunters as a group tend to be more dedicated to shooting than many riflemen, and I don't think technological advances have changed that. There aren't many bowhunters that only take a few shots on a paper plate before the season and say "I'm good." But that's common practice with many rifle hunters.

 

[mtmuley]

To some of the other arguments above, people with 300 RUMs and other super magnums with expensive ammo, in my experience, are often more bold than people with bows.

I'm bold with my RUM. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

On the one hand you have to take the shots you are given, and often the perfect shot does not present itself to hunters. I remember listening to a podcast or watching a video (not sure where/when) that basically said if you are always waiting for the perfect shot, you will never shoot an elk with a bow.

Even the best among us cannot foresee what can happen out there, and even consistent training cannot fully prepare someone for a screaming 800 lb. animal to come barreling towards them, or what their heart rate is going to be doing when that opportunity finally comes. One unforeseen branch in the wrong place is the difference between a chip shot and hours of tracking and overwhelming sadness and guilt (ask me how I know...).

I do know that wound loss is something that is factored into management. To your point: the more hunters on the landscape, the more wounded animals there will be. It probably is time to start revisiting those management decisions and thinking about how high of a rate of wound loss is tolerable.

To some of the other arguments above, people with 300 RUMs and other super magnums with expensive ammo, in my experience, are often more bold than people with bows. Bowhunters as a group tend to be more dedicated to shooting than many riflemen, and I don't think technological advances have changed that. There aren't many bowhunters that only take a few shots on a paper plate before the season and say "I'm good." But that's common practice with many rifle hunters.

How is wound lose factored into general deer and elk management in Montana? I mean the tags are OTC and unlimited in number for residents, the season structure is the same as it's been since at least 1957, actually days have been added.

How is it factored in?

I think the argument may be could hold water in limited areas where tag quotas are adjusted, but I'm going to call BS that it's factored into general elk and deer.

 

[mtmuley]

There aren't many bowhunters that only take a few shots on a paper plate before the season and say "I'm good." But that's common practice with many rifle hunters.

Baloney. There are many rifle hunters that agonize over thousandths of an inch. A hundredth of a grain of powder. Scrutinizing components and the techniques to make a loaded cartridge perfect. Days spent at the range. Lots of paper plate bowhunters. Don't kid yourself welky. mtmuley

 

[Elky Welky]

Baloney. There are many rifle hunters that agonize over thousandths of an inch. A hundredth of a grain of powder. Scrutinizing components and the techniques to make a loaded cartridge perfect. Days spent at the range. Lots of paper plate bowhunters. Don't kid yourself welky. mtmuley

Sure, I know those people too. But that isn't the majority by any means, though I don't doubt that's the crowd you are around more (and it is what you see here on hunt talk). There are also many, many people who don't take hunting nearly as seriously and aren't as obsessive. And there are statistically still far more rifle hunters in the world than bowhunters: which means there are more "paper plate rifle hunters." I've never met a single person into archery who doesn't practice.

So no, I'm not kidding myself at all. I also realized, after owning a RUM for 15 years, that it was too expensive to practice with and far more than I needed for what I hunt, and I've stepped down to a more reasonable 300 Win.

 

[FREAK]

In my opinion this isn’t a bow vs. rifle debate. Many guys that pick up the bow on a whim and go fire arrows irresponsibly are the same guys that take stupid shots with a rifle. I still come back to the issue of media and product companies continuously posting content and video’s of polished off hunts with grip and grin photos in attempt to sell product and recruit new hunters. When a guy sees a pro archer shoot an elk at 80 he thinks “I should be good to 50.” Anyone that shoots a lot of archery knows 50 is not an ideal shot in the mountains under pressure. For many guys that spend lots of time with their bow it’s a manageable shot but not ideal. People are getting into the sport for the wrong reasons, and it will always result in poor stewardship and irresponsible behavior. Make hunting “uncool” and maybe the trolls will move back into selling real-estate.

 

[Fire_9]

There are slobs in every area of the outdoor space. There a people that practice a ton and have the results to show for that practice. There a people that practice a ton and still suck, yet they continue to hunt because they are married to whatever weapon they're shooting.

 

[Elky Welky]

In my opinion this isn’t a bow vs. rifle debate. Many guys that pick up the bow on a whim and go fire arrows irresponsibly are the same guys that take stupid shots with a rifle. I still come back to the issue of media and product companies continuously posting content and video’s of polished off hunts with grip and grin photos in attempt to sell product and recruit new hunters. When a guy sees a pro archer shoot an elk at 80 he thinks “I should be good to 50.” Anyone that shoots a lot of archery knows 50 is not an ideal shot in the mountains under pressure. For many guys that spend lots of time with their bow it’s a manageable shot but not ideal. People are getting into the sport for the wrong reasons, and it will always result in poor stewardship and irresponsible behavior. Make hunting “uncool” and maybe the trolls will move back into selling real-estate.

No, it's not a bow v. rifle debate, that's true. But mt muley loves his RUM (hey, points for being consistent on here!) and how dare anyone speak truth to RUM??

The bigger point I was trying to stress further above is that even the best among us, the most dedicated and practiced hunters, wound animals. We do need to accept that it is part of what we do, unfortunately, and that bows are a less effective tool.

I heard this from a friend recently and it's true: it's not easy to kill elk with a stick.

 

[mtmuley]

I heard this from a friend recently and it's true: it's not easy to kill elk with a stick.

The guys that know what they are doing with today's compounds that shoot sticks are very, very effective. And there are a lot of archery hunters that are very successful. Easy? Yeah, for some it is. mtmuley

 

[Elky Welky]

How is wound lose factored into general deer and elk management in Montana? I mean the tags are OTC and unlimited in number for residents, the season structure is the same as it's been since at least 1957, actually days have been added.

How is it factored in?

I think the argument may be could hold water in limited areas where tag quotas are adjusted, but I'm going to call BS that it's factored into general elk and deer.

Wasn't ignoring this question Buzz, just wanted to get the facts straight and talk to more knowledgeable people before answering. I knew they factored it in, but I'm not a biologist and didn't recall how I knew that. So I called a friend who worked for almost 20 years in research with Montana FWP, and he told me that not only do they factor wound loss in for tag allocution, but that they would be irresponsible not to, and the department conducted multiple studies about it. He said it is crude, because it is so difficult to determine, but that they usually factor it in around 20%. He also said he would not be surprised in the least to learn that archery is more like 1:1, and that for every elk killed there's a wounded elk too, but that nobody wants to talk about it.

Regarding how it is factored in, that's just it: if mortality is too high in a general unit, it may go to cow only/spike the next year, etc. Montana's regulations do have unlimited tags OTC, but each unit has specific rules as to what that OTC tag is good for, and that is based on many factors, wound loss included.

 

[Elky Welky]

The guys that know what they are doing with today's compounds that shoot sticks are very, very effective. And there are a lot of archery hunters that are very successful. Easy? Yeah, for some it is. mtmuley

Okay. I don't really know what point you are trying to make anymore, aside from just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. As one of those guys with a fancy modern compound who knows what he's doing, I still have had things go wrong. All it takes is one small obstacle in the way to divert an arrow. But again, not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. But I'm done playing.

 

[DFS]

Wasn't ignoring this question Buzz, just wanted to get the facts straight and talk to more knowledgeable people before answering. I knew they factored it in, but I'm not a biologist and didn't recall how I knew that. So I called a friend who worked for almost 20 years in research with Montana FWP, and he told me that not only do they factor wound loss in for tag allocution, but that they would be irresponsible not to, and the department conducted multiple studies about it. He said it is crude, because it is so difficult to determine, but that they usually factor it in around 20%. He also said he would not be surprised in the least to learn that archery is more like 1:1, and that for every elk killed there's a wounded elk too, but that nobody wants to talk about it.

Regarding how it is factored in, that's just it: if mortality is too high in a general unit, it may go to cow only/spike the next year, etc. Montana's regulations do have unlimited tags OTC, but each unit has specific rules as to what that OTC tag is good for, and that is based on many factors, wound loss included.

Unfortunately that is not the case. I believe @Nameless Range could tell you some counts where deer are dismal and it’s is still general. Buzz could tell you the same for deer and elk. Everything stays the same in montana regardless of counts who is in political power where hunters are hunting, etc etc…. I do believe they have finally blew the relief valve for the western Montana guys and people are pissed. Things will change or there will be nothing left. Nothing left is where I hedge my bet.

 

[Elky Welky]

Unfortunately that is not the case. I believe @Nameless Range could tell you some counts where deer are dismal and it’s is still general. Buzz could tell you the same for deer and elk. Everything stays the same in montana regardless of counts who is in political power where hunters are hunting, etc etc…. I do believe they have finally blew the relief valve for the western Montana guys and people are pissed. Things will change or there will be nothing left. Nothing left is where I hedge my bet.

Okay.

 

[BuzzH]

Wasn't ignoring this question Buzz, just wanted to get the facts straight and talk to more knowledgeable people before answering. I knew they factored it in, but I'm not a biologist and didn't recall how I knew that. So I called a friend who worked for almost 20 years in research with Montana FWP, and he told me that not only do they factor wound loss in for tag allocution, but that they would be irresponsible not to, and the department conducted multiple studies about it. He said it is crude, because it is so difficult to determine, but that they usually factor it in around 20%. He also said he would not be surprised in the least to learn that archery is more like 1:1, and that for every elk killed there's a wounded elk too, but that nobody wants to talk about it.

Regarding how it is factored in, that's just it: if mortality is too high in a general unit, it may go to cow only/spike the next year, etc. Montana's regulations do have unlimited tags OTC, but each unit has specific rules as to what that OTC tag is good for, and that is based on many factors, wound loss included.

When was the last time you saw a spike or cow only season in a general unit?

I never have...and I'd like to chat with your contact.

If they don't shut down a season when they see 8 elk on a flight in what used to be a premier elk area West of Missoula, there is no way they are factoring in jack chit for wounding loss.

That's the biggest lie I've read in a long time.

 

[Elky Welky]

When was the last time you saw a spike or cow only season in a general unit?

I never have...and I'd like to chat with your contact.

If they don't shut down a season when they see 8 elk on a flight in what used to be a premier elk area West of Missoula, there is no way they are factoring in jack chit for wounding loss.

That's the biggest lie I've read in a long time.

Okay.