More deer killed by wolves than hunters in some Wisconsin counties

[BuzzH]

I know Randy is not the truth of all truths however, he commented it's impractical to consider wolves will self regulate. He shared when the landscape was free of the population we have. I agree. Our space is limited. This is not the wild land of the past...

Also regarding 10j, I have tried to locate anything remote to 1600 wolves killed between 10j (2005) and delisting (2011). I see frequent content from NPS that states 1600 wolves existed between WY, MT, and ID. I know this was off the top of his thoughts so maybe misspoken or is there a practical reference to this comment?
That ratio would equal/exceed our current annual harvest.

The 10j rule was implemented prior to, and a condition of reintroduction...and problem wolves were controlled pretty quickly after reintroduction....wayyyyyy prior to 2005.

I'd have to dig up the numbers, but I wouldn't doubt that 1600 wolves were killed by ranchers, APHIS, and State Gov. hunters between 1995-2011...at all.

 

[BrentD]

I know Randy is not the truth of all truths however, he commented it's impractical to consider wolves will self regulate.

What does it mean to "self regulate?" Of course, all top carnivores are regulated "from below" in the food chain - by definition. Is this what you mean by self regulation? Or do you mean they won't commit suicide if they become over abundant? The terminology in these discussions are a large part of why they never reach any tangible conclusion. I don't think most people know what population regulation is.

 

[Sytes]

I see Buzz. There are prior referenced 10j with YNP, etc. I took this to mean this is when 10j was applied for MT.

I followed this for the 2005 info.

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: Gray Wolf Program Accomplishments and Update

Wolf program update.

fwp.mt.gov

2005
January 2005

• Court ruling reclassifies wolves in northwest Montana back to endangered and eliminates additional flexibility for agencies and landowners.
• USFWS releases final 10j experimental rule for states with approved management plans–Montana and Idaho only. Rule provides additional flexibility to agencies and landowners to non-injuriously harass wolves or take wolves actively chasing, molesting, or attacking livestock or herding/guarding animals on private property and/or public allotments when permits are active.

 

[Sytes]

What does it mean to "self regulate?" Of course, all top carnivores are regulated "from below" in the food chain - by definition. Is this what you mean by self regulation? Or do you mean they won't commit suicide if they become over abundant? The terminology in these discussions are a large part of why they never reach any tangible conclusion. I don't think most people know what population regulation is.

Instead of from me, here is his quote;

Some dream that wolves and prey will find some perfect balance. That may have been possible 400 years ago over large uninterrupted landscapes. With a half billion people living on this continent, fracturing elk and deer habitat, changing landscapes with our presence, such balance is a nice thought, but impractical. Until all 500 million of us agree to pack our bags and leave this continent, restoring it back to its original condition, the days of self-balancing within some socially acceptable population ranges will not happen.

 

[TheJason]

Key quote being socially acceptable. Note that I am not disagreeing with the socially acceptable aspect of it, but let’s be honest. That is the only NEED in this issue.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

If the cervidae aren't plentiful and healthy the wolves arent plentiful and healthy. Would the deer herd be better off in the midwest without wolves yeah probably. But the wolves aren't gonna decimate the population. As wolves move onto new territory herds bounce back as they always have.
I do think wolf hunting should be legal and managed just like everything else mostly for the enjoyment of sportsmen and women considering were the main funding for their healthy packs. Their is an easily achievable balance out there if the anti folks, smoke a pack a day folks, and the courts stay out of it and let biologists, conservationists, and the @Ben Lamb and @BuzzH and the many others of the world do their jobs for the good of all outdoor lovers and game animals.

 

[BigHornRam]

Wolves sure bring out the emotion in people in every way.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/gray-wolves-were-reintroduced-in-yellowstone-25-years-ago-its-been-a-struggle-but-today-they-survive/2020/01/17/12515f3a-3703-11ea-9541-9107303481a4_story.html

 

[BWALKER77]

It provides a false sense of entitlement & disregards biological carrying capacity of the habitat for ungulates, leading people to think you can kill your way to higher deer & elk numbers, rather than focus on habitat conservation.

And it's ethically dubious & anthropologically selfish to kill off one native species for the short term increase of another species.

Humans have the ability to stack the deck in our favor and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
I agree with you that habitat is important, but so is keeping predators at minimal levels.
And who exactly is advocating the extinction of wolves or other predators?

 

[SAJ-99]

“Managing”, “self regulating”, keeping “In check”, “at minimal levels”, “perfect balance”. No one knows what any of this actually means well enough to put numbers to it. That is the problem, but simultaneously makes everyone an expert. Interesting discussion.

 

[kroppr_77]

Maybe you need the crayons. You just stated wolves need to be managed in order to preserve your hunt opportunity. That is an opinion, not a fact. Not that I am advocating, but if we just left nature alone, it would self regulate. The notion it NEEDS us to intervene is simply not true.

Hate to break it to you, but we have intruded on nature far too much for that to work. That hardly works anywhere in the continent of North America, thats why we adopted a model of conservation referred to the North American model. You have to regulate and control all species in a an ecosystem, especially when they do not have any predators or anything that controls them themselves. Nature can not control nature anymore when there are towns every couple of miles, roads cutting and dividing everything, and houses all over; when animals are then confined by these spaces. The whole idea of let nature do nature has never worked and never will work, humans live on the plant too and are apart of ecosystems as well. Everything needs to be regulated when we grown and covered so much.

 

[BrentD]

Hate to break it to you, but we have intruded on nature far too much for that to work. That hardly works anywhere in the continent of North America, thats why we adopted a model of conservation referred to the North American model. You have to regulate and control all species in a an ecosystem, especially when they do not have any predators or anything that controls them themselves. Nature can not control nature anymore when there are towns every couple of miles, roads cutting and dividing everything, and houses all over; when animals are then confined by these spaces. The whole idea of let nature do nature has never worked and never will work, humans live on the plant too and are apart of ecosystems as well. Everything needs to be regulated when we grown and covered so much.

That is simply not true. The math does not rest because there are too many humans around. The math simply recalculates. Regulation happens. It has to. It is a zero sum game out there. Whether we do the regulating or "nature" does the regulating, regulations happens.

Who is regulating those meadow voles? And I have spent quite a bit of time trying to figure what is regulating prairie deer mice. Something is, I just can't find it.

 

[kroppr_77]

The thought that wolves wouldn't have a detrimental impact on deer herds in the great lakes area, is just astonishing to me when it has been proven. In Wisconsin for example we are roughly 3 times over the recovery goal for wolves to be controlled, so the population does not grow to be much larger. If we are to manage wolves by hunting, to reach the objective goal we would have to remove 500-1000 wolves in Wisconsin? That won't happen, they never will give out that many tags. We have counties where deer harvests were around 1,500 deer roughly 15-20 years ago (such as Iron Co), where the deer harvest for the year is only a couple 100 now. Even statistics on how much deer related car crashes have gone down in the northern half of the state all reflect this. It is scientifically obvious that the deer heard has been drastically reduced in northern WI, and is obvious why the wolves continue to move further south ever year. We have packs in central WI only an hour north of Madison in Adams and Marquette county, that were never supposed to have wolves, let alone be 50-100 miles from any wolves.

 

[kroppr_77]

That is simply not true. The math does not rest because there are too many humans around. The math simply recalculates. Regulation happens. It has to. It is a zero sum game out there. Whether we do the regulating or "nature" does the regulating, regulations happens.

Who is regulating those meadow voles? And I have spent quite a bit of time trying to figure what is regulating prairie deer mice. Something is, I just can't find it.

sorry should've clarified, I mainly was referring to big game. We regulate everything in Wisconsin from waterfowl, upland birds, deer, coyotes, bear, and more; but not wolves which makes absolutely no sense when they make such an impact on populations, far more than any other predators we have in WI.

 

[BWALKER77]

I cant comment on Wisconsin as I have never hunted there. However, I lived and hunted in the UP of Michigan from 1995-2017. Wolves have definitely impacted the deer herd, but not as much as the the winters of 1995-96, 1996-97. The deer herd has never bounced back from those two winters. On top of that the MI DNR has much too liberal hunting seasons. It's also worth pointing out that logging activity has greatly changed since the 80's and the winter deer yards are in terrible shape. It's very likely that the UP would have crap hunting even if you killed off the majority of the wolf population.

 

[bluespruce]

Who is regulating those meadow voles? And I have spent quite a bit of time trying to figure what is regulating prairie deer mice. Something is, I just can't find it.

Humans... via feral cats.

 

[BrentD]

Humans... via feral cats.

Wrong. You don't understand What regulation means if you think that.

 

[NR_Hunter]

I'm gonna have to get the crayons out pretty soon to explain this...

Wolves need to be managed. In their current state with their populations where they are at and the number of hunters, they need to be managed. Either wolves need to be managed or half the tags need to be issued. There isn't room for both wolves and humans to grow and continue to kill at the rate they are.

Now, say if there weren't wolves in the midwest, I would vote to keep from reintroducing them. Due to the fact that there are more than enough hunters to keep deer populations in check, there is no need for wolves. This is my opinion, hence the statement about there not being room for them in the midwest, in my opinion.

As far as "my" social desires, I'd say my desire is to continue to hunt deer in my home state of Minnesota (I feel like a few people might agree with that statement) . I would appreciate if wolves could be managed so herd populations stop falling. I get your social desire might be different being wolves won't affect bird numbers but as far as big game goes they have an impact. Also note that it looks as though you Coyote hunt? Well wolves will run out or kill Coyotes in their territory.

Now that wolves are here they obviously aren't going anywhere. But they need to be managed if we wish to continue having the good deer populations we've always had.

Did you use crayons when you did the math to come up with the numbers that the amount of tags issued needs to be cut in half because of wolves?

This is so far into the weeds now, but if you're trying to infer all I do is bird hunt, I'd advise you to peruse my post history a little deeper. Plenty of critters besides wolves prey on game birds and it bothers me none at all, only ones I beef with are domestic cats.

And as to your assumption that I coyote hunt, that is correct, although these past few years its been pretty casually. If there are so many wolves they ate all the coyotes, I'll just start hunting wolves. That's never going to happen tho.

 

[rjthehunter]

Did you use crayons when you did the math to come up with the numbers that the amount of tags issued needs to be cut in half because of wolves?

This is so far into the weeds now, but if you're trying to infer all I do is bird hunt, I'd advise you to peruse my post history a little deeper. Plenty of critters besides wolves prey on game birds and it bothers me none at all, only ones I beef with are domestic cats.

And as to your assumption that I coyote hunt, that is correct, although these past few years its been pretty casually. If there are so many wolves they ate all the coyotes, I'll just start hunting wolves. That's never going to happen tho.

Guesstimate, that's where my math came from. Humans and wolves can't continue at the rate they're going at in terms of deer harvests. I agree with the hunting wolves, I would hunt wolves too, but the problem is... We can't manage them... As I've been saying for some time now and feel like it's getting repetitive to say it, but wolves need to be managed. We can't just try and manage 1 species. That's not how conservation works. Both prey and predator need to be managed to keep the populations balanced.

I'm not saying all you do is bird hunt. I see it looks like you bird hunt, and I'm getting at the point that as a deer hunter who hunts deer from archery season through the end of the year, I can tell you that deer numbers are affected greatly by wolf numbers.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I didn't realize Wisconsin had such a poor deer herd. I mean, it's only 2 million animals w/1 county as a buck only zone.

The horror.

Deer population at potential record high as hunters set sights on 2019 Wisconsin gun season

The Department of Natural Resources estimates 2 million white-tailed deer are present in Wisconsin, providing good prospects for hunters in the 2019 gun season.

www.jsonline.com

 

[Ben Lamb]

Humans have the ability to stack the deck in our favor and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
I agree with you that habitat is important, but so is keeping predators at minimal levels.
And who exactly is advocating the extinction of wolves or other predators?

This assumes that the only use for a deer is for human consumption. I think that's an easy position to take, as it really doesn't mean you look beyond that one use of an animal, whereas having a full suite of animals, both predator and prey, at levels that can sustain hunting as well as the genetic diversity needed for future populations of animals is more difficult in terms of management.

As for the importance of habitat versus predator control - one is proven to work over the longest period of time, and for the best use of the funding(habitat conservation) while the other is not.