Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Irrelevant]

According to phone surveys, a significantly higher number of brow-tined bull elk are taken every year in the Elkhorns than there are permits allocated.

This was brought up in the EMP Scoping meeting I attended in Helena, and it was more or less stated that those who admitted to killing elk w/o a permit in 380 would not be pursued as law breakers because it would harm the spirit of honesty FWP desires in the phone surveys.

I am not kidding.

But did they kill a bull in 380, or get the number wrong (either by accident or deliberately)?

 

[Nameless Range]

But did they kill a bull in 380, or get the number wrong (either by accident or deliberately)?

It could totally be folks misreporting the district they killed a browtined bull in. Though, if a MT hunter doesn't know not to say they illegally killed a bull in 380 over the phone, I doubt they'd know better on the landscape. I don't know if we'll ever know but I suppose it's a flaw inherent in any phone survey.

It would also be in line with the drop in bull quality in the Elkhorns that the bio can't seem to get ahead of, despite proposing reductions in the amount of permits available over and over again.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

But did they kill a bull in 380, or get the number wrong (either by accident or deliberately)?

I know in the unit I mentioned above it's just bad data. There is definitely illegal take, but no way it's higher than the legal take. 7x is just laughable.

 

[Irrelevant]

I know in the unit I mentioned above it's just bad data. There is definitely illegal take, but no way it's higher than the legal take. 7x is just laughable.

I know I've contributed to that in the past. You get answer the phone at half time of some kids soccer game 6 months later and are trying to remember which of the 6 units you scouted you actually shot your deer in... fauk IDK... 604... or was it 406?

 

[Bambistew]

Just to give everyone an idea of what we're up against in MT-

I spoke to a biologist this week about the harvest stats not looking right in a specific unit. The bio had spoken to almost all tagholders that year, and had a fairly confident number for bucks harvested. They had also not heard of any illegal take.

The published harvest statistics that came from the phone surveys showed almost 7x as many bucks being harvested as the biologist's number.

Wait, I thought the phone survey is 95% accurate?

The simple solution is mandatory reporting, or you don't get a tag, or can't apply for a special permit for one year. Everything is automated, if your name is flagged you don't get a tag, pretty easy. If people can spend countless hours strategizing what tags to draw they can spend 5 min reporting where they hunted, put a time limit on it. No excuses.

Without a doubt there will be turds that won't report accurately, but I think by and large most would. Make some examples out of people who falsely report.

 

[MTTW]

I would like to nominate @FoodIsMemories for the mule deer committee though I am sure he is already on their radar.

 

[YukonGold]

According to phone surveys, a significantly higher number of brow-tined bull elk are taken every year in the Elkhorns than there are permits allocated.

This was brought up in the EMP Scoping meeting I attended in Helena, and it was more or less stated that those who admitted to killing elk w/o a permit in 380 would not be pursued as law breakers because it would harm the spirit of honesty FWP desires in the phone surveys.

I am not kidding.

The elk harvest data report online shows 102 BTBs taken in 380 in 2021. Plus 153 spikes. Looks like there were 135 BTB permits available that year. Where'd you get your data?

 

[Nameless Range]

The elk harvest data report online shows 102 BTBs taken in 380 in 2021. Plus 153 spikes. Looks like there were 135 BTB permits available that year. Where'd you get your data?

You make a fair point, and I have spoken incorrectly. I did not intend to mislead .The harvest based on the phone surveys is higher than the reported harvest of permit holders.

Aside from the meeting in Helena, the bio for the Elkhorns, Adam Grove, also sent this in an email:

• "The fact that the total number of brow-tined bulls reported harvested in HD 380 continues to be well above the reported bull harvest with 380-20 permits (only legal BTB harvest in HD 380) in our harvest surveys year after year is somewhat disconcerting. Frankly, don't know if that is indeed illegal harvest being reported, folks miss reporting the HD where they harvested their elk, or what it is; but it's potential impact on BTB numbers is worrisome, if we do indeed have some amount of illegal harvest occurring."
  
  
  
  Really, I think the point I was trying to make and agree with Randy11 on, is that our phone surveys are so unreliable, that it's not clear that meaningful information is gleaned from them. I'm skeptical that it would be possible to build a statistical model that takes into account their error when you don't even know, and will not pursue finding out, what is and is not error.
  

 

[YukonGold]

You make a fair point, and I have spoken incorrectly. I did not intend to mislead .The harvest based on the phone surveys is higher than the reported harvest of permit holders.

Aside from the meeting in Helena, the bio for the Elkhorns, Adam Grove, also sent this in an email:

• "The fact that the total number of brow-tined bulls reported harvested in HD 380 continues to be well above the reported bull harvest with 380-20 permits (only legal BTB harvest in HD 380) in our harvest surveys year after year is somewhat disconcerting. Frankly, don't know if that is indeed illegal harvest being reported, folks miss reporting the HD where they harvested their elk, or what it is; but it's potential impact on BTB numbers is worrisome, if we do indeed have some amount of illegal harvest occurring."
  
  
  
  Really, I think the point I was trying to make and agree with Randy11 on, is that our phone surveys are so unreliable, that it's not clear that meaningful information is gleaned from them. I'm skeptical that it would be possible to build a statistical model that takes into account their error when you don't even know, and will not pursue finding out, what is and is not error.

I just wonder if it's harder when you have a limited permit vs a general license. In the former, you have a finite pool of hunters so you have to successfully communicate with a certain % of them, who may or may not answer the phone. Versus the huge pool who have a general license where you just keep calling new ones until you get the number you need to statistically make your inference.

So yeah at least for limited permits I think a mandatory report should be a no-brainer and not all that hard to implement. Sounds like some of the bios are already reaching out to permit holders themselves.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I would like to nominate @FoodIsMemories for the mule deer committee though I am sure he is already on their radar.

If I should be elected, I will thoroughly take your opinions into consideration

 

[peterk1234]

You make a fair point, and I have spoken incorrectly. I did not intend to mislead .The harvest based on the phone surveys is higher than the reported harvest of permit holders.

Aside from the meeting in Helena, the bio for the Elkhorns, Adam Grove, also sent this in an email:

• "The fact that the total number of brow-tined bulls reported harvested in HD 380 continues to be well above the reported bull harvest with 380-20 permits (only legal BTB harvest in HD 380) in our harvest surveys year after year is somewhat disconcerting. Frankly, don't know if that is indeed illegal harvest being reported, folks miss reporting the HD where they harvested their elk, or what it is; but it's potential impact on BTB numbers is worrisome, if we do indeed have some amount of illegal harvest occurring."
  
  
  
  Really, I think the point I was trying to make and agree with Randy11 on, is that our phone surveys are so unreliable, that it's not clear that meaningful information is gleaned from them. I'm skeptical that it would be possible to build a statistical model that takes into account their error when you don't even know, and will not pursue finding out, what is and is not error.

I picked up the phone when they called. I was truly expecting more questions other than "did you get one and where was it?" Heck, that could be accomplished with basic online reporting.

This was my first time with the process. I was expecting questions about my observations regarding deer, hunters, elk, moose, predators, etc. I even made mental notes of all the things I saw during the season in hopes of getting the call. Oh well, live and learn. I get it, they are trying to call everyone. But wouldn't be more effective to call less and spend time asking questions that could provide legit data?

 

[JEL]

The other day I was chatting with a gal who grew up on a ranch near Otter. Family still owns it. She said there are almost no mule deer on their place now. Pretty sad state of affairs when private land is barren too.

 

[jt13]

The other day I was chatting with a gal who grew up on a ranch near Otter. Family still owns it. She said there are almost no mule deer on their place now. Pretty sad state of affairs when private land is barren too.

I talked to our family friend with about 8,000 deeded acres in Powder River County recently. Said the elk and pronghorn are kicking ass but the mule deer numbers and the size of the bucks is down

 

[DFS]

That particular area has recently had some “great” counts in the last five to 6 years. Anybody that spends any time in the area knows it’s dismal, besides the people running the show.

 

[Elky Welky]

At 41 pages, this thread is pretty long but I genuinely would like to know what the consensus is here among the Hunt Talkers.

Obviously folks are unhappy with mule deer management in MT, but for the life of me I can't detangle what everyone here is complaining about as it relates to mule deer. As someone born and raised in Western MT who now lives in South-Central MT, I've never had a hard time finding mule deer anywhere. I've hunted extensively in powder river country the last 5 years, as well as in the northern 700s, the 600s, 400s, and 300s over my life. Although I have seen the number of hunters, resident and nonresident alike, spike to absurd levels, I haven't personally observed much difference in the deer numbers.

Is this conversation really just a concern with a lack of finding big bucks? Is the interest here more about managing for trophy class animals as opposed to harvesting meat? Another thread here seems to take great issue with hunting for does. As an opportunity-state, Montana has never been all about trophies; or has our culture changed and did I just miss it?

I've also noted some gripes about hunting during the rut. Why is this a problem?

CWD is very concerning, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of the last few pages of this conversation. Mandatory reporting would be great for everything, not just deer. NR pressure applies to all species, not just deer. What is it about mule deer, specifically, that is a problem?

I'm not looking to get attacked here; I genuinely want to know what the "mismanagement" is that started this thread. It's clear to me that folks have strong feelings about mule deer. If anyone can share some resources beyond anecdotal observations, and help me succinctly understand what the real issues are, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks all!

 

[rogerthat]

At 41 pages, this thread is pretty long but I genuinely would like to know what the consensus is here among the Hunt Talkers.

Obviously folks are unhappy with mule deer management in MT, but for the life of me I can't detangle what everyone here is complaining about as it relates to mule deer. As someone born and raised in Western MT who now lives in South-Central MT, I've never had a hard time finding mule deer anywhere. I've hunted extensively in powder river country the last 5 years, as well as in the northern 700s, the 600s, 400s, and 300s over my life. Although I have seen the number of hunters, resident and nonresident alike, spike to absurd levels, I haven't personally observed much difference in the deer numbers.

Is this conversation really just a concern with a lack of finding big bucks? Is the interest here more about managing for trophy class animals as opposed to harvesting meat? Another thread here seems to take great issue with hunting for does. As an opportunity-state, Montana has never been all about trophies; or has our culture changed and did I just miss it?

I've also noted some gripes about hunting during the rut. Why is this a problem?

CWD is very concerning, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of the last few pages of this conversation. Mandatory reporting would be great for everything, not just deer. NR pressure applies to all species, not just deer. What is it about mule deer, specifically, that is a problem?

I'm not looking to get attacked here; I genuinely want to know what the "mismanagement" is that started this thread. It's clear to me that folks have strong feelings about mule deer. If anyone can share some resources beyond anecdotal observations, and help me succinctly understand what the real issues are, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks all!

I can’t believe it wasn’t clear to you. Not meant to be a slight towards you. I need to look in the mirror as I must have poor communication skills. It’s an astounding across the board decline in numbers, quality, and mature buck to doe ratios in our mule deer populations. However I started this thread due to absolute population crashes in certain areas especially select public land in eastern montana. I have lived and hunted Montana for 40 plus years and the changes are startling if not unreal in some areas. It’s depressing. Where once there were historic herds of hundreds there are now just a few. So yes I can still find mule deer as well but the decline over the long term is startling and essentially refuted by MT fwp and the vast majority of hunters that lack the long term boots on the ground.

 

[rogerthat]

At 41 pages, this thread is pretty long but I genuinely would like to know what the consensus is here among the Hunt Talkers.

Obviously folks are unhappy with mule deer management in MT, but for the life of me I can't detangle what everyone here is complaining about as it relates to mule deer. As someone born and raised in Western MT who now lives in South-Central MT, I've never had a hard time finding mule deer anywhere. I've hunted extensively in powder river country the last 5 years, as well as in the northern 700s, the 600s, 400s, and 300s over my life. Although I have seen the number of hunters, resident and nonresident alike, spike to absurd levels, I haven't personally observed much difference in the deer numbers.

Is this conversation really just a concern with a lack of finding big bucks? Is the interest here more about managing for trophy class animals as opposed to harvesting meat? Another thread here seems to take great issue with hunting for does. As an opportunity-state, Montana has never been all about trophies; or has our culture changed and did I just miss it?

I've also noted some gripes about hunting during the rut. Why is this a problem?

CWD is very concerning, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of the last few pages of this conversation. Mandatory reporting would be great for everything, not just deer. NR pressure applies to all species, not just deer. What is it about mule deer, specifically, that is a problem?

I'm not looking to get attacked here; I genuinely want to know what the "mismanagement" is that started this thread. It's clear to me that folks have strong feelings about mule deer. If anyone can share some resources beyond anecdotal observations, and help me succinctly understand what the real issues are, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks all!

Some areas have very few deer in region 7 on public land yet we have mule deer doe tags and allow harvest. Does that make sense for a population challenged herd?

Regarding rut hunting, the bucks are very vulnerable so the majority of bucks are harvested by age 3 with our season structure leaving virtually no older age class bucks in the population for those who would like to target an older age class buck.

If you think powder river is good now then that sums it up for me. If you could only go back 20 years….

The decline is real with no end in sight. Every year a lower bar is set. That concerns me. But I don’t really see a path for change at this time as few even can take a step back from their forky killing to realize wth is happening.

 

[DFS]

If you have lived in Montana and hunted here your whole life and not seen a decrease in mule deer populations that is truly impressive. Quite the opposite of my “anecdotal” observations.

 

[Elky Welky]

I can’t believe it wasn’t clear to you. Not meant to be a slight towards you. I need to look in the mirror as I must have poor communication skills. It’s an astounding across the board decline in numbers, quality, and buck to doe ratios in our mule deer populations. However I started this thread due to absolute population crashes in certain areas especially select public land in eastern montana. I have lived and hunted Montana for 40 plus years and the changes are startling if not unreal in some areas. It’s depressing. Where once there were historic herds of hundreds there are now just a few. So yes I can still find mule deer as well but the decline is startling

No offense taken @rogerthat. This is a long conversation and there have been many tangents.

As I indicated, I'm originally from western MT, and my frame of reference for eastern MT is just the hunting I've done in Eastern MT over the last 5 years, which although that's half a decade, hasn't been enough time to note any differences in deer populations, but certainly differences in hunter pressure.

So my solution for not finding deer is to simply drive somewhere else or hike further, and I've never struggled to find and kill mule deer across the state, usually as an afterthought or out of desperation if I couldn't fill my elk tag.

 

[Elky Welky]

If you have lived in Montana and hunted here your whole life and not seen a decrease in mule deer populations that is truly impressive. Quite the opposite of my “anecdotal” observations.

@DougStickney where I grew up we quite literally had the opposite problem with mule deer overrunning the town, and I shot two mule deer from my porch in high school, and the deer still occupy my parents yard. Nothing has changed. You can also ask residents of Roundup how they feel about mule deer populations, and I predict they would say the opposite of you. From @rogerthat's comments, it sounds like the problem is more of an issue in parts of eastern Montana, is that where you live?