Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[brockel]

I'm sure that's true. As part of the elk management citizens advisory group last year the idea of cutting certain tags was brought up. We asked if the loss of income could be mitigated by raising prices on some tags. The response from FWP was "We have plenty of funds and don't need to ask for a price increase, even if tags are cut." Raising tag prices in MT was brought up another time and we were assured that FWP is cash flush and there is no reason to raise them. Maybe it's just the change over the last few years? Maybe our current Governor/Director are better at managing the budget? Maybe no one wants to work for FWP and it's causing a budget surplus due to wages not being paid out?

Maybe the big increase of new resident hunters has helped add the extra cash

 

[YukonGold]

I'm sure that's true. As part of the elk management citizens advisory group last year the idea of cutting certain tags was brought up. We asked if the loss of income could be mitigated by raising prices on some tags. The response from FWP was "We have plenty of funds and don't need to ask for a price increase, even if tags are cut." Raising tag prices in MT was brought up another time and we were assured that FWP is cash flush and there is no reason to raise them. Maybe it's just the change over the last few years? Maybe our current Governor/Director are better at managing the budget? Maybe no one wants to work for FWP and it's causing a budget surplus due to wages not being paid out?

Pittman-Robertson funds add a huge chunk. Many times the election of national Democratic politicians results in a huge increase in purchase of firearms/ammunition, which increases P-R funds available to states. COVID appears to have amplified that a LOT.

During the G.W. Bush administration, annual average P-R payout to Montana was $6.65 million. Then from 2009-2013 (Obama administration) the 5-year average was $11.1 million. In 2020 Montana received $15.9 million. For 2023, that number jumped to a whopping $31.1 million!

You can see the history of payouts here: https://tracs.fws.gov/wildlifeRestorationAndHunterEducationApportionments.html.

 

[TheTone]

There are also bios that I would guess adhere to the belief you can’t stockpile mule deer. I heard that years ago from an Idaho bio as reason to shoot them before Mother Nature kills them and know MT bios that came up under those same beliefs

 

[MTTW]

There are also some bios in MT that must think that The Rose Petal Hypothesis is BS. I guess it would be nice if it turns out that they are right, but I have serious doubts.
They do apparently believe in diminishing returns as a management plan, but what happens when you get down to the last best place, which is eastern Mt? All of the hunters are there but hunting hasn't recovered in the places that went to hell, and I am confident that it never will.

Brace yourselves for some more diminishing returns.

 

[rogerthat]

There are also some bios in MT that must think that The Rose Petal Hypothesis is BS. I guess it would be nice if it turns out that they are right, but I have serious doubts.
They do apparently believe in diminishing returns as a management plan, but what happens when you get down to the last best place, which is eastern Mt? All of the hunters are there but hunting hasn't recovered in the places that went to hell, and I am confident that it never will.

Brace yourselves for some more diminishing returns.

Eastern Mt is toast also. RIP 2022.

 

[antlerradar]

I'm sure that's true. As part of the elk management citizens advisory group last year the idea of cutting certain tags was brought up. We asked if the loss of income could be mitigated by raising prices on some tags. The response from FWP was "We have plenty of funds and don't need to ask for a price increase, even if tags are cut." Raising tag prices in MT was brought up another time and we were assured that FWP is cash flush and there is no reason to raise them. Maybe it's just the change over the last few years? Maybe our current Governor/Director are better at managing the budget? Maybe no one wants to work for FWP and it's causing a budget surplus due to wages not being paid out?

Also, I think we raised prices 8-10? years ago? Maybe that has had an effect.

Good points. Got to remember, when I was on the licensing committee Montana was struggling to sell all of the 17,0000 non resident combo licenses.

 

[antlerradar]

There are also some bios in MT that must think that The Rose Petal Hypothesis is BS. I guess it would be nice if it turns out that they are right, but I have serious doubts.
They do apparently believe in diminishing returns as a management plan, but what happens when you get down to the last best place, which is eastern Mt? All of the hunters are there but hunting hasn't recovered in the places that went to hell, and I am confident that it never will.

Brace yourselves for some more diminishing returns.

Diminishing returns management should have been scraped 40 years ago. Bad for wildlife, bad for hunters, bad for FWP, Bad for landowner/sportsman relations. The destruction this management philosophy has done in Montana is incalculable. Short rant over!

 

[JEL]

Maybe the big increase of new resident hunters has helped add the extra cash

I just bought all my tags for 2023. Elk, deer, fishing, upland, migratory, antelope, MSG draws, archery, bear. The works. $190. I think if budgets are a concern or will be by selling less doe tags then that $190 could be doubled. I would gladly pay it.

 

[sclancy27]

I just bought all my tags for 2023. Elk, deer, fishing, upland, migratory, antelope, MSG draws, archery, bear. The works. $190. I think if budgets are a concern or will be by selling less doe tags then that $190 could be doubled. I would gladly pay it.

That's where I am at. Doubling, at a minimum, the cost of big game tags puts us basically at WY Resident prices. I can't remember actual license costs going up in my lifetime, but they have added things like the "Base hunting license", archery stamp, etc. It's honestly a joke how cheap our resident licenses are.

 

[MTTW]

I have a 1980 elk tag in a drawer here and the price on it is $8. I would guess that tag prices have kept pace with wages more than keeping pace with inflation. I would pay double without hesitation, but I wouldn't expect it to change a thing.

 

[antlerradar]

That's where I am at. Doubling, at a minimum, the cost of big game tags puts us basically at WY Resident prices. I can't remember actual license costs going up in my lifetime, but they have added things like the "Base hunting license", archery stamp, etc. It's honestly a joke how cheap our resident licenses are.

Why the Base hunting license? I am sure some are wondering this so I am going to answer my own question.
The Base hunting license was born in the licensing and funding committee, I was a member of that committee. We were tasked with finding ways to raise revenue in a way that could pass the legislature. Raising nonresident license prices was not and option. reasons, Montana was having difficulty selling all of he nonresident combo licenses, Higher fees do to I161, made DYI nonresidents look else where, but pay to play nonresidents were happy to pay the increase and the increase increased there draw odds to 100%. Many on the committee did not want to repeat that mistake. Nonresidents at the time were paying 66% of license revenue. In my opinion this is too much.
It was my opinion that residents would need to pay the bulk of the increase. Why not just raise tag prices. The problem with this is at the time FWP was and likely still is heavily dependent on deer and elk. Fishing pays for its self, The Big three, antelope, birds and predators all cost more to manage than they generate in license revenue. Deer and Elk have to cover the difference and this makes FWP too dependent on deer and elk. In my opinion this is not ideal. I don't want FWP avoiding tough management choices with deer and elk because they are the cash cow. The base hunting license was a way to raise the bulk of the money from resident hunters without increasing FWP's dependency on deer and elk license sales.

 

[8andcounting]

Good points. Got to remember, when I was on the licensing committee Montana was struggling to sell all of the 17,0000 non resident combo licenses.

Randy newberg and his podcasts took care of that

 

[antlerradar]

Randy newberg and his podcasts took care of that

Maybe Randy should be getting a kick back, I will mention it to Hank if I talk to him again.

 

[antlerradar]

Maybe Randy should be getting a kick back, I will mention it to Hank if I talk to him again.

Probably a really bad idea, it Randy gets a kick back, every muley freak wantabe influencer would be flocking to Montana.

 

[cgasner1]

Probably a really bad idea, it Randy gets a kick back, every muley freak wantabe influencer would be flocking to Montana.

Idk people get kinda tired of watching 3x3 with a kicker getting killed

 

[brockel]

Idk people get kinda tired of watching 3x3 with a kicker getting killed

#oldwarrior

 

[TheTone]

Probably a really bad idea, it Randy gets a kick back, every muley freak wantabe influencer would be flocking to Montana.

Too late I’m afraid.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Just to give everyone an idea of what we're up against in MT-

I spoke to a biologist this week about the harvest stats not looking right in a specific unit. The bio had spoken to almost all tagholders that year, and had a fairly confident number for bucks harvested. They had also not heard of any illegal take.

The published harvest statistics that came from the phone surveys showed almost 7x as many bucks being harvested as the biologist's number.

 

[Nameless Range]

Just to give everyone an idea of what we're up against in MT-

I spoke to a biologist this week about the harvest stats not looking right in a specific unit. The bio had spoken to almost all tagholders that year, and had a fairly confident number for bucks harvested. They had also not heard of any illegal take.

The published harvest statistics that came from the phone surveys showed almost 7x as many bucks being harvested as the biologist's number.

According to phone surveys, a significantly higher number of brow-tined bull elk are taken every year in the Elkhorns than there are permits allocated.

This was brought up in the EMP Scoping meeting I attended in Helena, and it was more or less stated that those who admitted to killing elk w/o a permit in 380 would not be pursued as law breakers because it would harm the spirit of honesty FWP desires in the phone surveys.

I am not kidding.

 

[Big Fin]

I have received a commitment from the Director, whose staff follows Hunt Talk, that he will be forming a mule deer committee this summer. There should be some Hunt Talkers on the list of nominees for invitation to the committee.

I hope it gets done soon.