Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Schaaf]

 

[DFS]

Oh my God Becky, look at that buck…
He is so big, [scoff]
He looks like one of those Bambi’s grandpas..
But, ya know, who understands why bucks grow so big? [scoff]
They think it’s just genetics, but,
There’s just so much more than that, ‘kay?

I mean, that buck, he’s just.. so.. big..
I can't believe he’s just so symmetrical.. he must gross like 170!
I mean, you’ve gotta consider weather and nutrition in there.. and that neck roast, look!

I like big bucks and I cannot lie
You other hunters can't deny
That when a deer stands up all outta his bed
With them brown things on his head you get PRONE

Want to pull up tough
'Cause you imagine that shoulder mount stuffed
Deep in the breaks he’s massing
I’m hooked and I can’t stop glassing
Oh baby, I wanna get wit'cha
And take a grip n’ grin pictcha

My homeboys tried to warn me
But that rack you got makes (you, you so horny)
Ooh, Region Seven,
Wanna be non-resident heaven?
Well, shoot does, shoot does
Goin’ home with an empty truck blows
Baby wants racks

I've seen him feedin'
On forbs and browsing seedlins'
He’s a buck, in rut
Lookin’ for some heads to butt
I'm tired of Eastmans’ magazines
Sayin' whitetails are the thing

Take the vocal Montanan and ask:
You want tags or you want big racks?
So, fellas (Yeah!) fellas (Yeah!)
Have you passed on that fork-horn rag? (What? Hell no!)
Tell 'em to ditch it (Ditch it!) ditch it (Ditch it!)
Ditch that general tag
Baby wants racks (trophies over opportunity)
Baby wants racks (trophies over opportunity)
(We want trophies over opportunity)

I like 'em wide, and big
A right ol’ Roman nosed pig
I can't help myself, I'm actin' like an animal
Now here's my scandal
I wanna get a doe
Double-up on does! Uh! A truckload full of does!
I ain't packing out two points
‘Cause ultralight load shelves aren’t made for toys

I want 'em real dark and heavy
So find that juicy double [lung shot]
Montana’s in trouble
Beggin' for a break from the grumble

So I’m lookin’ at what the surveys show
Below average counts, poor fawn ratios
But why the numbers so low?
‘Cause droughts and prairie winters kinda blow

Word to the residents, I get your hesitance,
Those mule deer need replenishmence
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna grunt (tube)
At the break of dawn
This buck’s got it goin' on

A lot of folks won't like this song
'Cause some guys like to gripe and mock,
And I'd rather spot and stalk
‘Cause I hike, and I’m like,
“I'm down to lace my boots up tight”

So, ladies (Yeah!) ladies (Yeah!)
Tired of overrun BMAs? (Hell yeah!)
Then turn around, lease it out
Even outfitters got to shout
Baby wants racks
Baby wants racks
(Crab-claws in the back but still a good rack)
(Crab-claws in the back but still a good rack)
Yeah, FWP, when it comes to mule deer,
CWD risk ain't got nothin' to do with hunter perception
Four by four with 20” inside spread,
Ha ha, only if he’s age three..

So your hunting buddy rolls a Can Am,
Usin’ it to check his trail cams
But your buddy can’t find a buck in that public land bedlam
‘Cuz big bucks don’t want none ‘less it’s secure habitat, son
You can use OnX and e-scout
(But please, so is everyone else)

Some hunters want to pick up sheds
And dream about the year ahead
The bucks drop ‘em, and leave ‘em
And we disturb winter range to retrieve ‘em

But does they need some fat
Well this drought ain't down with that
'Cause fawns born small when their mamas are thin
They’ll never grow up to be big in’
To barstool bios who say “genetics,”
There’s so much more to antler aesthetics
Big-bodied mista, can’t resist ya
Bitterbrush an’ clover didn’t miss ya

Some knuckleheads tried to diss
'Cause the science they all dismiss
They had a shot but chose to pass ‘im
And I pull up quick to blast at ‘im
So gents, if you’ve got buck fever
And don’t wanna just fill your freezer
Dial 1-900-MISSALOT
And kick them nasty thoughts
Baby wants racks

That’s going straight to the top of the charts.

 

[rogerthat]

Correct.

Well why don’t they make the change then? I predict they will change nothing. Even after the April counts.

 

[JLS]

Well why don’t they make the change then? I predict they will change nothing. Even after the April counts.

FIIK

 

[WanderWoman]

Structural changes are done biennially, making B tags valid on private land only would be a structural change. Season setting for 2024/25 will start sometime this year and that could be a suggestion in comments/scoping. Quotas can be changed annually. Quotas are changed after regs are printed, so the B tag decrease last year didn’t show up until this year’s regs (although it was in place for the draw/season), and if they change quotas this year, after spring counts, that won’t show up until 2024 regs.

 

[rogerthat]

Structural changes are done biennially, making B tags valid on private land only would be a structural change. Season setting for 2024/25 will start sometime this year and that could be a suggestion in comments/scoping. Quotas can be changed annually. Quotas are changed after regs are printed, so the B tag decrease last year didn’t show up until this year’s regs (although it was in place for the draw/season), and if they change quotas this year, after spring counts, that won’t show up until 2024 regs.

Bingo!! Turns out it’s a plan….maybe not so adaptive however

 

[brockel]

Oh my God Becky, look at that buck…
He is so big, [scoff]
He looks like one of those Bambi’s grandpas..
But, ya know, who understands why bucks grow so big? [scoff]
They think it’s just genetics, but,
There’s just so much more than that, ‘kay?

I mean, that buck, he’s just.. so.. big..
I can't believe he’s just so symmetrical.. he must gross like 170!
I mean, you’ve gotta consider weather and nutrition in there.. and that neck roast, look!

I like big bucks and I cannot lie
You other hunters can't deny
That when a deer stands up all outta his bed
With them brown things on his head you get PRONE

Want to pull up tough
'Cause you imagine that shoulder mount stuffed
Deep in the breaks he’s massing
I’m hooked and I can’t stop glassing
Oh baby, I wanna get wit'cha
And take a grip n’ grin pictcha

My homeboys tried to warn me
But that rack you got makes (you, you so horny)
Ooh, Region Seven,
Wanna be non-resident heaven?
Well, shoot does, shoot does
Goin’ home with an empty truck blows
Baby wants racks

I've seen him feedin'
On forbs and browsing seedlins'
He’s a buck, in rut
Lookin’ for some heads to butt
I'm tired of Eastmans’ magazines
Sayin' whitetails are the thing

Take the vocal Montanan and ask:
You want tags or you want big racks?
So, fellas (Yeah!) fellas (Yeah!)
Have you passed on that fork-horn rag? (What? Hell no!)
Tell 'em to ditch it (Ditch it!) ditch it (Ditch it!)
Ditch that general tag
Baby wants racks (trophies over opportunity)
Baby wants racks (trophies over opportunity)
(We want trophies over opportunity)

I like 'em wide, and big
A right ol’ Roman nosed pig
I can't help myself, I'm actin' like an animal
Now here's my scandal
I wanna get a doe
Double-up on does! Uh! A truckload full of does!
I ain't packing out two points
‘Cause ultralight load shelves aren’t made for toys

I want 'em real dark and heavy
So find that juicy double [lung shot]
Montana’s in trouble
Beggin' for a break from the grumble

So I’m lookin’ at what the surveys show
Below average counts, poor fawn ratios
But why the numbers so low?
‘Cause droughts and prairie winters kinda blow

Word to the residents, I get your hesitance,
Those mule deer need replenishmence
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna grunt (tube)
At the break of dawn
This buck’s got it goin' on

A lot of folks won't like this song
'Cause some guys like to gripe and mock,
And I'd rather spot and stalk
‘Cause I hike, and I’m like,
“I'm down to lace my boots up tight”

So, ladies (Yeah!) ladies (Yeah!)
Tired of overrun BMAs? (Hell yeah!)
Then turn around, lease it out
Even outfitters got to shout
Baby wants racks
Baby wants racks
(Crab-claws in the back but still a good rack)
(Crab-claws in the back but still a good rack)
Yeah, FWP, when it comes to mule deer,
CWD risk ain't got nothin' to do with hunter perception
Four by four with 20” inside spread,
Ha ha, only if he’s age three..

So your hunting buddy rolls a Can Am,
Usin’ it to check his trail cams
But your buddy can’t find a buck in that public land bedlam
‘Cuz big bucks don’t want none ‘less it’s secure habitat, son
You can use OnX and e-scout
(But please, so is everyone else)

Some hunters want to pick up sheds
And dream about the year ahead
The bucks drop ‘em, and leave ‘em
And we disturb winter range to retrieve ‘em

But does they need some fat
Well this drought ain't down with that
'Cause fawns born small when their mamas are thin
They’ll never grow up to be big in’
To barstool bios who say “genetics,”
There’s so much more to antler aesthetics
Big-bodied mista, can’t resist ya
Bitterbrush an’ clover didn’t miss ya

Some knuckleheads tried to diss
'Cause the science they all dismiss
They had a shot but chose to pass ‘im
And I pull up quick to blast at ‘im
So gents, if you’ve got buck fever
And don’t wanna just fill your freezer
Dial 1-900-MISSALOT
And kick them nasty thoughts
Baby wants racks

Holy hell spring needs to get here

 

[DFS]

I guess I don’t see why any B tags would be issued when populations are struggling. Sure they decreased them last year but why would you not drop it to the lowest level allowed. When you see a population drop 52% in a year and it wasn’t doing good the year before it seems elementary that you would pump the brakes.

 

[406huntermt]

I guess I don’t see why any B tags would be issued when populations are struggling. Sure they decreased them last year but why would you not drop it to the lowest level allowed. When you see a population drop 52% in a year and it wasn’t doing good the year before it seems elementary that you would pump the brakes.

Yet again it’s not about management it’s about money… they would hate to lose that revenue

 

[DFS]

Yet again it’s not about management it’s about money… they would hate to lose that revenue

If you pencil it out mtfwp isn’t getting rich off doe tags. Biologists and managers aren’t car salesmen they don’t get commission for tags sold.

They will tell you it’s a drop in the bucket of the total population which is fine if harvest was evenly distributed. It’s not, and there are accessible lands that have felt the effects of liberal doe harvest. I’ve seen it.

 

[Carnage2011]

Yet again it’s not about management it’s about money… they would hate to lose that revenue

Nothing accurate about this statement.

 

[8andcounting]

Nothing accurate about this statement.

Huh

 

[Carnage2011]

Huh

Revenue from doe tags is not substantial. FWP is very cash flush right now and could operate just fine without funds from doe tags.

 

[8andcounting]

T

Revenue from doe tags is not substantial. FWP is very cash flush right now and could operate just fine without funds from doe tags.

Then I would sure a hell like to know the reason

 

[DFS]

Their data isn’t showing a problem. I’m trying to figure it out and I can’t. Something is missing and I believe it’s the way they collect their data and ANALYZE. it. Large tracts of private are skewing things and they don’t have the boots on the ground to see it. My best guess who knows.

 

[DFS]

Why even do counts or employ people if nothing changes with what they see. There is a lot of money that could be saved if we just stay the course with zero changes when a herd is struggling.

 

[JLS]

Their data isn’t showing a problem. I’m trying to figure it out and I can’t. Something is missing and I believe it’s the way they collect their data and ANALYZE. it. Large tracts of private are skewing things and they don’t have the boots on the ground to see it. My best guess who knows.

This is probably pretty close. I don't necessarily think it's in the analysis. I'm guessing raw data numbers (including the large private land tracts) do skew the numbers.

FWP is very sensitive to depredation/damage complaints because of their legal mandate to manage at or below population objectives.

Plus, IMO there is a long held cultural paradigm that mule deer numbers cannot be hurt by hunting because the habitat is that good.

 

[DFS]

This is probably pretty close. I don't necessarily think it's in the analysis. I'm guessing raw data numbers (including the large private land tracts) do skew the numbers.

FWP is very sensitive to depredation/damage complaints because of their legal mandate to manage at or below population objectives.

Plus, IMO there is a long held cultural paradigm that mule deer numbers cannot be hurt by hunting because the habitat is that good.

I could be completely wrong but I think the locals collect the data and they send it to helena for manipulation or I mean analysis. Helena says stay the course everything looks good.

 

[antlerradar]

I have said this before, but it looks like it needs to be said again. The revenue generated is important, It may not be the sole reason for issuing doe tags, but it is one of the reasons. I sat on the licensing and funding committee and we had discussions on programs that generated or cut revenue by far less than what doe tags bring in.

 

[Carnage2011]

I have said this before, but it looks like it needs to be said again. The revenue generated is important, It may not be the sole reason for issuing doe tags, but it is one of the reasons. I sat on the licensing and funding committee and we had discussions on programs that generated or cut revenue by far less than what doe tags bring in.

I'm sure that's true. As part of the elk management citizens advisory group last year the idea of cutting certain tags was brought up. We asked if the loss of income could be mitigated by raising prices on some tags. The response from FWP was "We have plenty of funds and don't need to ask for a price increase, even if tags are cut." Raising tag prices in MT was brought up another time and we were assured that FWP is cash flush and there is no reason to raise them. Maybe it's just the change over the last few years? Maybe our current Governor/Director are better at managing the budget? Maybe no one wants to work for FWP and it's causing a budget surplus due to wages not being paid out?

Also, I think we raised prices 8-10? years ago? Maybe that has had an effect.