Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[JEL]

17 does, probably out of the same little area, and he wonders why he has seen a decline in deer numbers. But I don’t believe it’s our job to patrol and scrutinize our fellow hunters for going out and having a good time legally on their public lands with a license FWP sold them. That’s not our role. It’s FWP’s fault for selling them those 19 deer tags and expecting everything to be ok, and changing very little every year. If you have a legal tag in your pocket, go knock yourself out

17 does, probably out of the same little area, and he wonders why he has seen a decline in deer numbers. But I don’t believe it’s our job to patrol and scrutinize our fellow hunters for going out and having a good time legally on their public lands with a license FWP sold them. That’s not our role. It’s FWP’s fault for selling them those 19 deer tags and expecting everything to be ok, and changing very little every year. If you have a legal tag in your pocket, go knock yourself out

While I agree FWP is grossly mismanaging mule deer I am going to push back a little on "That's not our role". As sportsman and conservations, it sure is our role. I mean when I see 17 does as above and phrases like had trouble filling their doe tags (but we still did it) it shows me that the majority of sportsman just don't give a crap. If they did, they would self-regulate. I like to have deer meat as much as the next guy but haven't shot a buck since 2016 and it is mostly because quantity and quality are in the toilet.

 

[brockel]

While I agree FWP is grossly mismanaging mule deer I am going to push back a little on "That's not our role". As sportsman and conservations, it sure is our role. I mean when I see 17 does as above and phrases like had trouble filling their doe tags (but we still did it) it shows me that the majority of sportsman just don't give a crap. If they did, they would self-regulate. I like to have deer meat as much as the next guy but haven't shot a buck since 2016 and it is mostly because quantity and quality are in the toilet.

But when they are told by the people who are actually paid to manage our wildlife that deer numbers are doing fantastic why wouldn’t the average person who goes out over thanksgiving weekend and fills all their doe tags think any different?

I’ve heard from quite a few people that “If deer numbers weren’t doing fantastic they wouldn’t sell all these doe tags”.

 

[Ought Six]

While I agree FWP is grossly mismanaging mule deer I am going to push back a little on "That's not our role". As sportsman and conservations, it sure is our role. I mean when I see 17 does as above and phrases like had trouble filling their doe tags (but we still did it) it shows me that the majority of sportsman just don't give a crap. If they did, they would self-regulate. I like to have deer meat as much as the next guy but haven't shot a buck since 2016 and it is mostly because quantity and quality are in the toilet.

Cool man, you go up to that pickup, probably filled with the guy’s wife and kids, all who had a blast blasting does doing nothing illegal, and harass them about the legal activities they are enjoying on their public land on tags issued to them by a game agency who is supposed to manage and they trust to manage the resource and all while spending their hard earned money and time on the licenses, gear, fuel, lodging, etc. Tell me how that turns out for you. You’ll end up the one looking like a tool. I don’t like to see the doe killing as much as anyone, I’m a big proponent of the resource and not opportunity, but if FWP is going to keep selling tags, people shouldn’t feel guilty about using them.

 

[DFS]

We have all seen the best hunting we will ever see in Montana. Even if you only started hunting last year. It is going to become a pay to play and most of us don’t have thick enough wallets. Unless you have private access things are going to continue to get tougher. I think you can say stick a fork in it it’s done.

 

[JEL]

Cool man, you go up to that pickup, probably filled with the guy’s wife and kids, all who had a blast blasting does doing nothing illegal, and harass them about the legal activities they are enjoying on their public land on tags issued to them by a game agency who is supposed to manage and they trust to manage the resource and all while spending their hard earned money and time on the licenses, gear, fuel, lodging, etc. Tell me how that turns out for you. You’ll end up the one looking like a tool. I don’t like to see the doe killing as much as anyone, I’m a big proponent of the resource and not opportunity, but if FWP is going to keep selling tags, people shouldn’t feel guilty about using them.

Right cause that's what I said I was going to do. All I am saying is it would be nice if people actually gave a crap about the resource rather than not thinking about it while blasting away the only herd of does they could find that weekend.

 

[Ought Six]

Right cause that's what I said I was going to do. All I am saying is it would be nice if people actually gave a crap about the resource rather than not thinking about it while blasting away the only herd of does they could find that weekend.

It would be nice for sure

 

[Ought Six]

We have all seen the best hunting we will ever see in Montana. Even if you only started hunting last year. It is going to become a pay to play and most of us don’t have thick enough wallets. Unless you have private access things are going to continue to get tougher. I think you can say stick a fork in it it’s done.

You got any deer on the home place anymore? You guys used to kill some big ones out there

 

[DFS]

You got any deer on the home place anymore? You guys used to kill some big ones out there

Some local guys took a forky out of my yard this year. That was the best I’ve heard of for awhile. Not sure how good it was but they were hustling so I suspect it wasn’t just a normal 2 point.

 

[Eric Albus]

While I agree FWP is grossly mismanaging mule deer I am going to push back a little on "That's not our role". As sportsman and conservations, it sure is our role. I mean when I see 17 does as above and phrases like had trouble filling their doe tags (but we still did it) it shows me that the majority of sportsman just don't give a crap. If they did, they would self-regulate. I like to have deer meat as much as the next guy but haven't shot a buck since 2016 and it is mostly because quantity and quality are in the toilet.

FWP has to manage mule deer, hunters can’t/won’t control themselves.
Hunter’s will buy every license available and fill every tag they have, assuming they’re able. There are a few of us here preaching to the choir that can/will self control, but hunters by and large are parasites, taking all they can and leaving a gut pile in the field. Perhaps calling them parasites is a little harsh, they don’t understand management/biology/age structure, ect./self control. Their mindset is “oh boy, there’s antlers on that one, gotta get him before the next guy does”.

Until we are all fed up enuf to show up with torches and pitchforks in each region and at FWP headquarters lawn expect to see very few changes.

 

[brocksw]

FWP has to manage mule deer, hunters can’t/won’t control themselves.
Hunter’s will buy every license available and fill every tag they have, assuming they’re able. There are a few of us here preaching to the choir that can/will self control, but hunters by and large are parasites, taking all they can and leaving a gut pile in the field. Perhaps calling them parasites is a little harsh, they don’t understand management/biology/age structure, ect./self control. Their mindset is “oh boy, there’s antlers on that one, gotta get him before the next guy does”.

Until we are all fed up enuf to show up with torches and pitchforks in each region and at FWP headquarters lawn expect to see very few changes.

Couldn't agree more with the first part.

I think the second part describes a flawed approach. I'm not trying to call you out Albus, not at all. But I think you folks just need to get organized and go to the FWP like adults and sit down and figure out the problem. There appears to be a disconnect some where in the chain. Whether that's management, communication, or the observations of hunters, I don't know. Whether the underlying problem is with decision making, flawed deer counts, shifting historical herd locations, bad harvest data, or deer simply staying on private land more, I don't know that either.

But it appears to me that someone on one or both sides is seeing or thinking different things. When trustees and beneficiaries are on a different page over the management of the trust, that's not a good foundation for communication or working together for good management. That needs to be corrected before moving towards solutions and understandings.

I find it extremely helpful to make an appt with our GF in ND and sit down to try and figure out their point of view. I ask lots of questions to make sure I understand everything. I request to see data, I ask questions about it. Sometimes it takes multiple meetings to get me to understand every element. Sometimes they need more data. Sometimes they disagree with my point of view. Sometimes they have information I didn't know about that tells me more about the big picture. Sometimes I don't like their answers and share a different opinion. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree.

But the effectiveness of the conversation and the willingness to continue to work towards a positive outcome would all be lost if their perception of me, because of my own actions, is simply pitch forks and torches and I haven't even given them a chance at a fair, rational, and objective conversation(s) on a subject matter their career revolves around.

Maybe that's already been done and I'm just out of the loop or to far behind? And none of this is to say they're always right about everything.

I understand theres some history that makes things difficult for some people. But sooner or later, cooler heads must prevail and show up, willing to put the past in the past, and get on the same page.

I've been plenty vocal and critical about wildlife issues in MT. So I'm just as guilty of being an ass about things as anyone else. So don't take this spiel as me talking down to anyone. But I think if MT hunters want to see different management of the deer resource, you need to start communicating with your wildlife professionals better. That's the first step towards anything meaningful and good. I've seen pitch forks and torches, it makes a mess of things, even if you get your way momentarily.

New Mexico might be a different story and there might be a few things at the MT legislature that needs pitch forks and torches. But with the FWP, I think there needs to be more conversations.

Just my 2 pennies.

 

[Ought Six]

Couldn't agree more with the first part.

I think the second part describes a flawed approach. I'm not trying to call you out Albus, not at all. But I think you folks just need to get organized and go to the FWP like adults and sit down and figure out the problem. There appears to be a disconnect some where in the chain. Whether that's management, communication, or the observations of hunters, I don't know. Whether the underlying problem is with decision making, flawed deer counts, shifting historical herd locations, bad harvest data, or deer simply staying on private land more, I don't know that either.

But it appears to me that someone on one or both sides is seeing or thinking different things. When trustees and beneficiaries are on a different page over the management of the trust, that's not a good foundation for communication or working together for good management. That needs to be corrected before moving towards solutions and understandings.

I find it extremely helpful to make an appt with our GF in ND and sit down to try and figure out their point of view. I ask lots of questions to make sure I understand everything. I request to see data, I ask questions about it. Sometimes it takes multiple meetings to get me to understand every element. Sometimes they need more data. Sometimes they disagree with my point of view. Sometimes they have information I didn't know about that tells me more about the big picture. Sometimes I don't like their answers and share a different opinion. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree.

But the effectiveness of the conversation and the willingness to continue to work towards a positive outcome would all be lost if their perception of me, because of my own actions, is simply pitch forks and torches and I haven't even given them a chance at a fair, rational, and objective conversation(s) on a subject matter their career revolves around.

Maybe that's already been done and I'm just out of the loop or to far behind? And none of this is to say they're always right about everything.

I understand theres some history that makes things difficult for some people. But sooner or later, cooler heads must prevail and show up, willing to put the past in the past, and get on the same page.

I've been plenty vocal and critical about wildlife issues in MT. So I'm just as guilty of being an ass about things as anyone else. So don't take this spiel as me talking down to anyone. But I think if MT hunters want to see different management of the deer resource, you need to start communicating with your wildlife professionals better. That's the first step towards anything meaningful and good. I've seen pitch forks and torches, it makes a mess of things, even if you get your way momentarily.

Just my 2 pennies.

Come sit in on a Region 7 meeting and see what questions are asked and how they are answered. Things are as good as it’s ever been according to them. Anecdotal evidence of hunters who have lived in and hunted the area for 30-40 years is not credible evidence to them. Tighten up those boot laces

 

[brocksw]

Come sit in on a Region 7 meeting and see what questions are asked and how they are answered. Things are as good as it’s ever been according to them. Anecdotal evidence of hunters who have lived in and hunted the area for 30-40 years is not credible evidence to them. Tighten up those boot laces

In my experience, public meetings arent effective for getting granular with these issues. You're putting people on the spot, often people who work with wildlife and not on public speaking. Get organized with stakeholders. Make an appointment. Show up with an objective attitude willing to talk. Don't show up trying to force your opinion or understanding of things on them. That's all I'm saying.

 

[DFS]

Couldn't agree more with the first part.

I think the second part describes a flawed approach. I'm not trying to call you out Albus, not at all. But I think you folks just need to get organized and go to the FWP like adults and sit down and figure out the problem. There appears to be a disconnect some where in the chain. Whether that's management, communication, or the observations of hunters, I don't know. Whether the underlying problem is with decision making, flawed deer counts, shifting historical herd locations, bad harvest data, or deer simply staying on private land more, I don't know that either.

But it appears to me that someone on one or both sides is seeing or thinking different things. When trustees and beneficiaries are on a different page over the management of the trust, that's not a good foundation for communication or working together for good management. That needs to be corrected before moving towards solutions and understandings.

I find it extremely helpful to make an appt with our GF in ND and sit down to try and figure out their point of view. I ask lots of questions to make sure I understand everything. I request to see data, I ask questions about it. Sometimes it takes multiple meetings to get me to understand every element. Sometimes they need more data. Sometimes they disagree with my point of view. Sometimes they have information I didn't know about that tells me more about the big picture. Sometimes I don't like their answers and share a different opinion. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree.

But the effectiveness of the conversation and the willingness to continue to work towards a positive outcome would all be lost if their perception of me, because of my own actions, is simply pitch forks and torches and I haven't even given them a chance at a fair, rational, and objective conversation(s) on a subject matter their career revolves around.

Maybe that's already been done and I'm just out of the loop or to far behind? And none of this is to say they're always right about everything.

I understand theres some history that makes things difficult for some people. But sooner or later, cooler heads must prevail and show up, willing to put the past in the past, and get on the same page.

I've been plenty vocal and critical about wildlife issues in MT. So I'm just as guilty of being an ass about things as anyone else. So don't take this spiel as me talking down to anyone. But I think if MT hunters want to see different management of the deer resource, you need to start communicating with your wildlife professionals better. That's the first step towards anything meaningful and good. I've seen pitch forks and torches, it makes a mess of things, even if you get your way momentarily.

Just my 2 pennies.

Their data is not showing any problems. You could talk to them until you are blue in the face. Many have. It will be dismissed as anecdotal. The counts are bad but that was caused by the weather and drought. Overall buck to doe ratios are good, population is within the long term average, Hunter numbers have not increased. Nothing is telling them they need to change anything. Add on cwd management and nothing is going to change. The best I can tell they are working with flawed data because I know I’m not wrong in what I am seeing. We don’t have the data to prove them wrong.

 

[TheJason]

Don't show up trying to force your opinion or understanding of things on them. That's all I'm saying.

Water boarding big Hank would be the most likely to get some results.

 

[brocksw]

Their data is not showing any problems. You could talk to them until you are blue in the face. Many have. It will be dismissed as anecdotal. The counts are bad but that was caused by the weather and drought. Overall buck to doe ratios are good, population is within the long term average, Hunter numbers have not increased. Nothing is telling them they need to change anything. Add on cwd management and nothing is going to change. The best I can tell they are working with flawed data because I know I’m not wrong in what I am seeing. We don’t have the data to prove them wrong.

You would be free to disregard what I've said in that case, certainly. I guess I have not heard of an organized group of stakeholders getting a meeting and discussing mule deer in a long form conversation, potentially even multiple meetings. I was basing my opinion on that.

 

[antlerradar]

Water boarding big Hank would be the most likely to get some results.

Actually had a good conversation with Hank the other day regarding mule deer. I am still in wait and see mode, before I crack a smile though.

 

[Nameless Range]

I just finished reading Gene Tierney's book, "Cry of the Hunted." He was a game warden from 1944-1973, and I thoroughly enjoyed his tales and takes. He wrote the book in the 1980s. Within it he wrote this paragraph, and it made me think that some things never change.

"Many excuses were given for the sudden disappearance of mule deer in Montana but overkill wasn’t admitted as a reason by the biologists. Whenever I was asked why, I could only answer with what I believed to be true. I told whoever asked me that I didn’t think it was an act of nature that caused the significant drop in mule deer numbers. You can’t have almost unlimited mule deer hunting year after year and expect them to adjust while they try to retain a healthy, reproductive herd. The constant pressure for survival caused merely by the bodily presence of a lot of hunters is an adverse factor alone during their mating season. The animals are constantly being harassed and kept on the move during this period. Then add the actual hunter kill figure and it should be easy to see that with all these things added together, it makes a very hostile environment for deer to live in. This is also the time when they are attempting to supply their bodies with reserve fat to help sustain life through the winter months. In some areas, winter is already upon them by the end of Big Game Season."


There's many more nuggets in there that could have been written yesterday, some of which are uncanny.

 

[DFS]

I just finished reading Gene Tierney's book, "Cry of the Hunted." He was a game warden from 1944-1973, and I thoroughly enjoyed his tales and takes. He wrote the book in the 1980s. Within it he wrote this paragraph, and it made me think that some things never change.

"Many excuses were given for the sudden disappearance of mule deer in Montana but overkill wasn’t admitted as a reason by the biologists. Whenever I was asked why, I could only answer with what I believed to be true. I told whoever asked me that I didn’t think it was an act of nature that caused the significant drop in mule deer numbers. You can’t have almost unlimited mule deer hunting year after year and expect them to adjust while they try to retain a healthy, reproductive herd. The constant pressure for survival caused merely by the bodily presence of a lot of hunters is an adverse factor alone during their mating season. The animals are constantly being harassed and kept on the move during this period. Then add the actual hunter kill figure and it should be easy to see that with all these things added together, it makes a very hostile environment for deer to live in. This is also the time when they are attempting to supply their bodies with reserve fat to help sustain life through the winter months. In some areas, winter is already upon them by the end of Big Game Season."


There's many more nuggets in there that could have been written yesterday, some of which are uncanny.

It is crazy how they defend failing management. I don’t understand it. People that are raising the flags aren’t wrong.

 

[shoots-straight]

Mule deer were a major concern back in like 1985 I'm thinking.

There was a Mule deer summit at the Edgewater Inn at Missoula. I made the 90 mile round trip from Hamilton to hear and give my ideas on mule deer management.

The department bios were allowed to start off with their presentation on the why's and If's and becasues's of mule deer management.

The mule deer in the Eastern part of the state had been at all time (what ever that was) highs and people were going over in stock trucks killing as many deer as you could fit in one. I remember something like 5 tags each was possible.

So then by the mid 80's we had no more deer. Some but not many and everyone was concerned. The bios told us that they new the deer were going to have a die off, so they issued the tags so they wouldn't go to waste.

When my time at the podium came, I went up grasping the mic, I admitted I had no background in wildlife management, but I felt I had some common sense and wanted to inject that. I said that I had and idea, that if they knew a die off was coming, that instead of issuing more tags they should have aired on the side of caution and gave out less tags not more.
I said that I witnessed how the public lands were now void of wildlife while the private lands still had deer, and felt that was a direct result of so much lead flying through the air on the public lands and not the private.

It was one of the those that I didn't make a lot of friends.

 

[Eric Albus]

Come sit in on a Region 7 meeting and see what questions are asked and how they are answered. Things are as good as it’s ever been according to them. Anecdotal evidence of hunters who have lived in and hunted the area for 30-40 years is not credible evidence to them. Tighten up those boot laces

This

Landowners/sportsmen/outfitters with 40-60 yrs on the ground experience KNOW NOTHING. Everything is fine, you guys are the only ones complaining and YOU don’t have a degree in biology. So go home, we have the situation under control, and things are gooood!